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Post forums => General Rotors => Topic started by: Sofox on September 04, 2014, 08:31:56 AM

Title: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Sofox on September 04, 2014, 08:31:56 AM
Because someone here that I follow on Twitter keeps posting about it, I've been somewhat informed on GamersGate. This is required, because part of the whole GamersGate controversy is that none of the established gaming media blogs will talk about GamersGate, or the issues it raises, or even acknowledge it exists.

Personally, the whole controversy makes me incredibly nervous. I try to get along with everyone, so the idea that you can express an opinion, but have a huge amount throw abuse at you because you didn't consider this opinion, or that opinion, or are making the issue out to be about this but not about that... already several people have had parts of their career destroyed, one an indie game developer who spoke out against IGF, another a writer who wrote for the Guardian against the misogyny. Even expressing a modicum of support or empathy for one side can instantly make you a huge target to the other, and I think that's pretty nerve racking. What's more is that both sides have really important issues to discuss: One side about stopping the sending of harassment and death threats to people for stupid and superficial reasons that's making the gaming community tough for certain groups of people, and the other side dealing with the corrupt and incestuous nature of game community/game journalism with organised objectives and motives that they don't seem to be honest with us about, culminating in that several major gaming blogs and news outlets choosing the exact same day to start running "death of gamer" articles (speaking of, why the heck are these sites directly insulting their own audience)?

In the end, it all leaves me slightly confused, worried, high on the drama, and also afraid to speak out for fear of being misinterpreted. But I figured, hey, we know eachother, we can discuss this reasonably and with respect even if we've varying opinions right? So what do you guys think?
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: yaj on September 04, 2014, 10:00:02 AM
I haven't been following this story, but I'm curious to know what it's about. There's a story about a women who made a video on youtube about women being portrayed as sexual objects in video games. She is now receiving death threats. And there's another story about an article on forbes. I'm not sure how either of these things are connected to the website GamersGate though.

As a side note,  the video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5i_RPr9DwMA#t=906) makes a lot of good points. I mean..sometimes feminists over exaggerate things, but it's more than a valid argument that women are portrayed as sexual objects in video games. I wasn't aware of how bad it was, since the only games I play these days are a couple of old playstation games.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Southbird on September 04, 2014, 11:21:31 AM
I haven't been following this story, but I'm curious to know what it's about. There's a story about a women who made a video on youtube about women being portrayed as sexual objects in video games. She is now receiving death threats. And there's another story about an article on forbes. I'm not sure how either of these things are connected to the website GamersGate though.

Yeah, I haven't been following this, either. A quick summary might be nice. I'm finding stories of someone sleeping with journalists for press and another about the feminist being threatened. For a scandal, Google's being surprisingly indirect. What are we focusing on here?
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Sofox on September 04, 2014, 06:03:33 PM
First up, I like the video yaj, there's a few points in it I'd argue against, but that just makes it like any other video on YouTube where someone expresses their opinion on video games.

Summarise GamersGate? Boy, that's hard, particularly since traditional blogs aren't covering it, and it's hard to get an unbiased account; even if I write one myself, there are just so many aspects to it.

So instead, I'm going to link you to what I believe is the most relevant video that I believe has emerged out of the discussion. It covers what it perceives as a conflict of interest and unhealthy connections between games journalists, an indie PR company, the IGF (indie game competition):

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TgW5NRUfs44[/youtube]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TgW5NRUfs44

Other than that, yes, there has been harassment against females, but also against males, and in both cases it's bad and should stop.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Keith Stack on September 04, 2014, 10:08:49 PM
To summarize:

Creepy misogynistic nerds are bad.

Indie game developers are bad.

Video game journalists are bad.

Radical feminists are bad.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: James on September 04, 2014, 10:54:27 PM
Not all indie developers. There have been more steadily coming out to support the cause over the past week.

Also there have been at least three unbiased reviews on the whole campaign, and a professional newscast with guests Adam Baldwin and InternetAristocrat (two of the big supporters of the movement) dissecting the situation and what caused everything to fall apart in the first place.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Sofox on September 05, 2014, 07:34:48 AM
Okay, I've found a recent article that doesn't do a terrible job of summarising GamersGate: http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2014/09/04/gamergate-a-closer-look-at-the-controversy-sweeping-video-games Some have said the view is anti-feminist (the author claims to criticize both sides), but the problem is I haven't found a feminist article that covers the subject in as much depth.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Southbird on September 05, 2014, 10:12:58 AM
Well, seems to be a very weird bit of cancer that just grew wildly out of control. It's hard to even keep track of all the things people are upset about. Per the article: "#GamerGate isn’t about conspiracies. It isn’t about scandal and corruption. It isn’t about feminists or misogynists. It isn’t about any of these things, and it’s about all of them all at once."

So, having read all that, going back to Sofox's original post... basically everything you've seen and all of your fears are pretty typical any time someone feels that basic social function is threatened. Now, I personally didn't realize that "gamer" had become an entire subculture. I always associated "gamer" as "person who plays video games a significant amount of time." Now that it's defining social norms and acceptance criteria, I'll just say I think the whole thing has become too obsessive and gone way too far.

Corruption in the press seems to be prevalent in any form of media. Media controls all these days and can be bought. It's a sad state of affairs, but it is what it is. The fact that people are "paying" (in whatever way) for good press shouldn't be a shock to anyone. The fact that the press itself won't talk about it most likely means that it is exactly what's happening. Their silence seems indicative of guilt.

But since video games ultimately come down to a tangible and usually commercial object, you'd like to believe in the end the consumer feedback will ultimately determine the legitimacy of any press. After all, even if you pay for good press, you better have a good video game. If a media outlet consistently publishes positive articles about a developer that continually churns out crap, eventually people will catch on and begin to distrust that source. It really shouldn't be any more complicated than that.

Another takeaway is don't air your dirty laundry on social media or any other publicly viewed forum. It sounds like a lot of this can all be traced back to a jilted ex-lover. This is unfortunately the age we live in, where everyone feels the need to speak out about every feeling and moment they have, and are somehow entitled to get everyone to care about it more than they should. I have largely stayed out of social media largely for this reason. I'm only interested in keeping track of people I at least moderately care about. The rest of the world is on its own.

Anyway, there's lots of bad stuff happening here, and it's really sad when people take a stance on something they get retaliation for it. But I think the bigger questions I have are why all of this is so important in the first place. I feel like video games should be one of those things where you follow a particular series and/or developer, and if they make a product you want, you buy it. The large-scale social implications of video games is probably something worth discussing since they are so prevalent now, and indeed extend well beyond the white-male-antisocial-nerd stereotype of old. (Of which I fit perfectly, honestly.) But I think people taking all of these stances about it are ridiculous. Video games more than ever are becoming an entry-level market. If you want to fight stereotypes, do it at the Indie level and encourage games that thwart stereotypes. Show that a video game can be good without whatever stereotype you dislike. Promote games that are doing something that you find remarkable.

Maybe it's a more passive stance, which is usually how I go about things anyway, but I think just speaking positively about a revolutionary video game rather than directly negatively attacking the foundation will mean a lot more in the long run. Because now all we've got is a bunch of people who've gotten mad, drawn their lines, and are failing to communicate. This has accomplished nothing and will probably continue to do so.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: James on September 05, 2014, 01:34:21 PM
"jilted ex-lover"

And in that instance, everything you said became invalid.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Sofox on September 05, 2014, 06:51:38 PM
DUDE!

Look James, I know this whole GamersGate has gotten tense and stressful for all involved, but the worst part of it is people not treating others as human beings, and in my opinion, that is what you have done.

Saying that "you said X so that makes your opinion invalid" is a terrible retort in all circumstances. It implies that either someone's argument is flawless, or not worth listening do, which in my opinion is an unrealistic standard. Some people use it to avoid engaging with someone's opinion at all, meaning it's just a defensive tactic to avoid having one's opinions challenged.

Rob presented an interesting and thought out opinion on the issue, and came to that opinion by looking over various sources of information then applying his own experiences and thought. I myself thought it was an interesting perspective and was glad he shared it. If you disagree with his opinion, or part of it, or feel he misses the point, then please write out a response explaining this and providing information to support your view. It will help deepen the discussion, and help more people understand your point of view (which I value, incidentally). If you consider GamersGate a serious issue, then you must believe it requires a serious discussion to go with it. There's no reason to expect Rob won't listen to you if you post your opinions reasonably.

What I certainly do not put up with, is people constantly going "you're wrong, so I'm not going to listen to you, because I'm right". There has been WAY too much of that in GamersGate. It's insulting, demeaning to everyone involved, arrogant, and basically impedes any possibility of discussion or learning. I posted here at SER because I believed that we'd have an open, non-hostile, off the cuff environment to talk about these issues, not the closed minded thinking I've seen so much of on Twitter. So please James, disagree with Rob's opinions all you want, but please explain why.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Southbird on September 05, 2014, 07:27:02 PM
Yeah, I also don't really know why, considering I only repeated what I read from the top of the article:

Quote
Jilted ex-boyfriend Eron Gjoni wrote a long treatise on the alleged infidelity of his ex-girlfriend, video game developer Zoe Quinn. Members of the video game industry and press were implicated.

... which if the article is valid at all was where the shit started rolling from. Maybe your beef is with the article itself there, James? But thanks for that, Sofox.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: James on September 05, 2014, 08:12:25 PM
It's GamerGate, actually. GamersGate is a game-distribution thing.

Also the article is skewed because it refers to Eron as a "jilted ex-boyfriend". Reading over the actual post, it is simply him talking about what he went through and only realized through hindsight, with no emotional attachment in the present-tense whenever it comes up. To be "jilted" would imply that he still feels emotions towards Zoe, but he doesn't anymore at this point. He made the post as a warning, plain and simple, both personally and professionally.

Also, Sofox, you're right - today has been a really fucking tense day. Been exposed to people who have fallen for the trap of the trolls who tag-abuse the campaign and create a negative bias. I know that we're having positive effect (one of the Escapist co-founders flat-out stated that the post-GamerGate ethical standards of its parent company and by extension all of its sites will become a new standard, and the big-name companies sponsoring sites like Kotaku are actually threatening to pull their ads unless they fix their shit), but encountering people dead-set on slamming the campaign because they happened to encounter a whole bunch of fucking bad eggs... It's just flat-out exhausting.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Sofox on September 05, 2014, 09:21:59 PM
You're welcome Rob.

And I accept your response James. It's one of the dangers of constantly interacting with negative and unreasonable people, if you're not careful about it, you'll might start acting a bit negative and unreasonable yourself. It's standard human behaviour osmosis. Best way to stop it is to be kind and respectful to everyone, even if they're nasty to you, even if you disagree with them. If you do that, you have a chance that the persons you're interacting with will see you're being polite and reasonable and respond in kind, maybe being more open to your point of view; even if they don't then bystanders will automatically attach more weight to the opinion of the person who's more respectful; and you also prevent the possibility of accidentally insulting someone in a way you'd later regret.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: James on September 05, 2014, 09:29:48 PM
I've tried doing that, but it hasn't worked at all. Politeness means nothing to a SJW, whether or not newly converted.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Southbird on September 05, 2014, 11:46:07 PM
It's GamerGate, actually. GamersGate is a game-distribution thing.

THAT must be why I was having trouble finding stuff on this earlier. It seemed weird that such a hot scandal had very few results, and I was trying to figure out if it was all tied to the distribution site somehow. :P
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Sz on September 07, 2014, 08:07:23 PM
My impression of it is that it's mind-crushingly stupid. People spewing internet vitrol at each other, and then pretending to be shocked and offended when vitrol gets fired back.

Basically we know that the internet has come of age when the sort of over-emotional, mindless spats that were once confined to newsgroups and BBSs now make news headlines.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Matt_TY on September 08, 2014, 06:09:14 AM
One day I want there to be a scandal that involves an actual gate, so that it is called Gategate.

Anyway this is all pretty dumb and involves wilful misinterpretation by both sides of one another's arguments. Then it gets all vitriolic and violent and stupid and trolls get involved and it's dumb.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: James on September 08, 2014, 04:28:59 PM
@Sz: I have no idea what you're talking about. Most of the posts I've been reading over the past 3 weeks have been perfectly civil discussions and responses.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Sz on September 08, 2014, 10:48:46 PM
Well, I tuned it out weeks ago. That said, given where it started, I can't imagine the civil discussions amount to anything more than navel gazing.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: H Hog on September 09, 2014, 02:46:21 AM
I haven't really tuned it in to begin with, and feel I'm probably happier for it.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Sofox on September 09, 2014, 04:15:05 AM
Well, I tuned it out weeks ago. That said, given where it started, I can't imagine the civil discussions amount to anything more than navel gazing.

The Escapist just released updated Journalist rules and guidelines in response to criticisms raised by GamerGate.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: James on September 09, 2014, 08:20:14 AM
Which will also apply to ALL of its sibling sites.

Meanwhile, Kotaku lost one of its major sponsors.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Sofox on September 09, 2014, 10:12:24 AM
Which sponsor? I missed that. Also a link so I can look it up would be helpful.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Archaemic on September 09, 2014, 03:50:28 PM
Kotaku is one of the worst major game journalism sites, so…actually, all Gawker sites are pretty bad.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Mirai on September 09, 2014, 07:09:44 PM
I didn't pay the story any mind as--with all things considered--game journalism has been about as important to my life as a book to a blind man.  With that said, sketchy connections, forceful control of a narrative, and outright corruption are nothing unique to this field.  Do a little digging into the national American news media, and between the friendships, partnerships, marriages, employment connections, sycophancy, etc., etc., much of it is one, big, incestual circle jerk of government, corporate, and special interests.

I'll say this: Whether sifting through this mess or a similar controversy, the best way to get news is to get as much of the firsthand sources as possible.  Encyclopedia Dramatica--though hardly neutral--is a great source for leaked/saved e-mails, posts, and whatnot that show instances of the sketchy connections Rob was suspecting.

Also, regarding social commentary, social justice, or whatever form of activism in gaming, if a good game includes some poignant points, I'll respect it and give it thought.  Think about Metal Gear Solid which touched on nuclear proliferation, the plight of the Kurds, female soldiers in the military, genetic experimentation, government corruption, et cetera and did so in a tasteful manner that fit into the story of a good game.  However, don't waste my time self-righteously preaching a sermon and calling it a game.  I'm not interested.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Sz on September 09, 2014, 08:39:48 PM
The Escapist just released updated Journalist rules and guidelines in response to criticisms raised by GamerGate.

Are their rules to go full-on John Walker and burn bridges with as many gaming PR firms as is necessary?

Because
(1) I doubt it
(2) that's really the only acceptable answer if we want the phrase "game journalism" to not be perpetually accompanied by stifled laughter.

I can't wade into it, every time I try I run into more attempts to redefine the term gamer ("our broad brush needs to be narrow enough to marginalize, and no narrower!") and sanctimonious bullshittery.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Mirai on September 09, 2014, 10:38:01 PM
I can't wade into it, every time I try I run into more attempts to redefine the term gamer ("our broad brush needs to be narrow enough to marginalize, and no narrower!") and sanctimonious bullshittery.

Can't sum it up any more succinctly than that.  Spare me the bullshit, tell me some intriguing projects to eyeball, and every now and then, tell me an interesting story about some notable part of the industry.  That's worthwhile gamer journalism.

I'll admit that I like a little snippet of what the Escapist is enforcing in terms of disclosing relationships, but I could only take one page of the obnoxious, blovious editorial waxing philosophical on the "penumbras...formed by emanations" of the term "gamer" in the 21st Century before skipping to the point.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Matt_TY on September 10, 2014, 05:51:52 AM
To be honest, I can't believe they have to make such a huge, overblown statement out of the sort of conflict of interest disclosure that I was pretty sure was standard practice for any sort of professional anything ever.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Sofox on September 10, 2014, 11:18:11 AM
Ugh, I tried not to get dragged down with GamerGate, but it happened. First, Anthony Burch, a guy I love from the Hey Ash video series, has taken a pretty uncompromising stance on the issue, not willing to listen to some counter suggestions, and just digging his position deeper while attacking the opposition. I was about to mention that his sister (the titular Ash) was weirdly not wading into the issue, but on looking up her Twitter feed, she actually is engaging with the debate: It's just that she's putting her opinion forward reasonably and listening to the response (while not necessarily agreeing) and just generally interacting... whoa, that actually makes me feel a lot better about everything. She's actually holding her own opinions without using that as an excuse to invalidate others. Phew, I was getting worried about lack of discussion in this topic.

The other things was about an article that blamed 4chan for starting GamerGate, and not even mentioning that 4chan donated over 10k to the feminist project The Fine Young Capitalists. I just want some balance and discussion on this.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: James on September 10, 2014, 03:46:18 PM
lol 4chan didn't start GamerGate, that was all Adam Baldwin

Seriously, statistical proof clearly shows it.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: James on September 10, 2014, 04:06:08 PM
And now, because the site is broken in such a way that it won't allow me to modify my post, double-post for replies!

Which sponsor? I missed that. Also a link so I can look it up would be helpful.
That would be StackSocial. (http://attackongaming.com/gaming-talk/stacksocial-no-longer-lists-kotaku-as-advertisement-affiliate-in-wake-of-gamergate-campaigning/) Losing Best Buy is also very likely. (http://gamergate.giz.moe/2014/09/bestbuy-responds-back-to-email/) Also Polygon lost a sponsor. (https://twitter.com/Chriss_m/status/509486352174694400)


I'll say this: Whether sifting through this mess or a similar controversy, the best way to get news is to get as much of the firsthand sources as possible.  Encyclopedia Dramatica--though hardly neutral--is a great source for leaked/saved e-mails, posts, and whatnot that show instances of the sketchy connections Rob was suspecting.

Know Your Meme has also been covering the whole thing from its inception.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Keith Stack on September 10, 2014, 09:39:47 PM
Sofox, I don't think you're doing this right. You're supposed to pick a side so you can immediately disregard anything the other side has to say. Go on Twitter, get angry at your generalized idea of who the other side is, and avoid genuine discussion at all costs.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Keith Stack on September 10, 2014, 09:44:27 PM
This also applies to politics, religious beliefs, and which smartphone you prefer.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Sz on September 10, 2014, 10:51:17 PM
Especially which smartphone you prefer.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Matt_TY on September 11, 2014, 07:10:01 AM
Well clearly you can't argue about which smartphone you prefer because mine is best and anyone who says otherwise is stupid and wrong and probably kicks puppies.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: James on September 11, 2014, 11:19:13 PM
Today, VICTORY. Loads and loads of VICTORY. Too much for me to post about because I'm tired as hell.

AWESOME day.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Sofox on September 16, 2014, 05:37:26 PM
Okay, this is ironic.

A guy on Reddit asked Julian Assange about GamerGate. Assange responded with an reply about Censorship was bad and spread to a lot of areas from Facebook to the Australian government. The original posters was then shadowbanned, which effectively censored him.

Yeah, this is how big it's become.

Edit: Oh, it turns out people are looking to KnowYourMeme and Encyclopedia Damatica for detailed summaries of the issue, things are going topsy turvy.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Archaemic on September 16, 2014, 06:04:21 PM
...censorship. Geez, these people are terrible.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Sofox on September 16, 2014, 06:37:04 PM
GamerGate stuff has been censored in multiple places, Reddit, various gaming sites, even 4chan right now which is blowing my mind.

That's actually part of the problem, and one of the reasons GamerGate has been constantly propelled for so long. Pro-GG people have issues they want to discuss, but when they try to discuss them in certain venues they are blocked/banned, so they get angry and add "not being able to discuss GG" to the list of issues they have, but when they try to discuss it again, same thing happens, they get angrier, and the cycle repeats.

It's led to a bunch of lesser games sites becoming more popular because they actually discuss and investigate the topics. They aren't that many other places people can discuss the topic without fear of getting censored, exceptions include Twitter, YouTube, the Escapist Forum has let pretty large topics grow on the subject, and of course Sonic Eats Rings forum *suddenly fears Sz or Spazz banning him*
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Archaemic on September 16, 2014, 10:47:14 PM
They get blocked or banned because they're spewing misogynistic garbage or doxing people, not because they're discussing it in the first place.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Sz on September 16, 2014, 11:05:02 PM
Pfft, like I even remember my admin password!
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Southbird on September 17, 2014, 09:40:51 AM
Pfft, like I even remember my admin password!

So were you thinking about it, perhaps even just as a lark? :P
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: James on September 17, 2014, 10:17:23 AM
^^^Please tell me you're joking.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Southbird on September 17, 2014, 10:34:05 AM
^^^Please tell me you're joking.

Was that to me, Sz, or the entire thread?
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: James on September 17, 2014, 05:05:50 PM
Archaemic. Count the arrows.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Sofox on September 17, 2014, 05:14:32 PM
James, I mean this in the nicest possible way, but I'm unfollowing you on Twitter. It's not because I disagree with you, or don't like you or am not interested in following GamerGate, it's because you're posting so much, I'm finding it hard to go through it all. Seriously, last night I think I spent over an hour catching up on 24 hours or Twitter, and that's just not time I want to be spending on it.

I am still interested in GamerGate and what you have to say on it, so I've a suggestion. Maybe you should start a blog, on Tumblr or something, and do a daily "Today on GamerGate." You could do a paragraph or two summarising everything that happened on GamerGate that day, with links to especially relevant or important stuff. If you did one of those, I would definitely follow it. It would be a great way to quickly get up to speed on GamerGate each day without constantly getting bogged down on details. Others might find it helpful too.

Think it's a good idea?
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Archaemic on September 17, 2014, 05:45:51 PM
Archaemic. Count the arrows.

the quote feature exists for a reason

I have not been following it closely because it's so batshit insane and has misogynistic assholes creeping out from the woodwork, but it seems like the most likely explanation. I also don't go to any of the venues people have been talking about. I might not have the best point of reference, but christ, can people just shut up about how "terrible" some devs and publisher are for not succumbing to the assholes?

The lists of gave devs to "boycott" just seems to be the people standing up against the abuse. If you boycott them for that, you are a genuine shithead.

As for the claims of corruption being flung around, it seems to be centered on Zoe Quinn and the concept that her ex was a journalist. Oh nooooo! Surely that's Quinn's fault! Any organization that claims to have any form of integrity would instate rules for the JOURNALISTS to avoid conflicts of interest, not their LOVERS. If the journalist wrote anything trying to promote Quinn, that's HIS fault, not HERS. Meanwhile, everything I've seen seems to say that he only mentioned her once, in passing. No reviews, no promotion. NO CONFLICT OF INTEREST. Granted, Kotaku has the journalistic integrity of Rush Limbaugh, so they probably don't actually have any guidelines or rules against that. But focusing this on Quinn instead of the ex has absolutely nothing to do with the "logic" that people claim to use.

E] I didn't actually read the early posts in this thread because I was trying to avoid it, for fear of escalation, but too late.

He made the post as a warning, plain and simple, both personally and professionally.

*snickers* As a warning against what?

Also you keep saying "supporting the cause". What exactly is "the cause"? To harass and drive good people from the games industry and fill it with assholes? Adam Baldwin, for example, is a conservative, misogynist, homophobic asshole.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: James on September 17, 2014, 06:01:04 PM
Archaemic, frankly you need to do more research. This site might help. (http://gamergate.giz.moe) News is added to it constantly.

Sofox, I think taking a break is a better idea. We already have sites gathering all the information, like what I linked right above this line.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Archaemic on September 17, 2014, 06:02:40 PM
Archaemic, I'm not going to make any counterpoints, and just direct you to a specific site that probably skews the news in favor of my perspective.

Mmk, I'll make sure not to shop around for different news sites. In all seriousness, I might take a look at this site later, but I'm so done with keeping up with this because all it does is make my blood boil, and I have better ways to spend my time.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: James on September 17, 2014, 06:09:00 PM
Better than fighting  a conspiracy? (http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-London/2014/09/17/Exposed-the-secret-mailing-list-of-the-gaming-journalism-elite)
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Sofox on September 17, 2014, 06:10:43 PM
[EDIT- Okay, a bunch of posts were made while I was writing this. Thanks for the link to that site James, I'll keep track of it.]

Hey Arch, before James bursts in, maybe I'll give you a quick bullet point list of some points that aren't being raised.

Zoe Quinn undermined an Feminist project that was about helping more women become game designers. The fact that she did this wasn't tackled by any of the mainstream gaming press. Only a Kotaku writer even gave an excuse for not tackling it, and it was because Kotaku was already entangled with Quinn because she and a Kotaku writer slept together, and because he was afraid the article would lead to harassment.

Mainstream press also didn't cover 4chan donating over 15k to the feminist project, and only the Escapist covered them giving money to charity to prevent suicide.

The IGF, one of the biggest award ceremonies for indie games and great way to find exposure, has been found to have conflicts of interests between judges and those they are judging. This has not been reported in the gaming press.

Phil Fish (developer of Fez) helped develop his game though getting funds from various people who in return received a share of his profits. These people in turn became judges in IGF, meaning they financially benefited from giving Fez the awards rather then judging in a fair manner. This was not reported by the mainstream gaming press, even when it was revealed (in fairness, it was revealed from a recent hack which itself was probably illegal, but that doesn't stop journalists from reporting on relevant information gained as a result).
 
The Escapist recently changed it's policy in response to GamerGate, especially in regards to disclosures. In a recent game article previewing a game, they disclosed that the publisher had paid for transport to New York where they'd played it.

UK Journalist Milo Yiannopoulos, has recently (like in the last few hours) revealed his discovery of a private mailing list where a large amount of gaming journalists meet and discuss things. What he leaked implies that the petition of game developers (many were actually games journalists) against harassment that was released soon after the original Zoe scandal (wherin it was revealed she slept with a Kotaku journalist), was actually concocted by the game journalists as a way of reporting on Zoe being harassed and giving her support, without actually reporting on it. There's also pressure on shutting down discussion on the topic, including the Escapist thread I mentioned earlier.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Sz on September 17, 2014, 08:30:49 PM
Too much noisiness in the twitter timeline is a common problem, and the bane of twitter. I've unfollowed so many otherwise interesting people because ain't nobody got time for that!
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Keith Stack on September 17, 2014, 10:52:09 PM
After following enough people on Twitter you just gotta give up on following everything regularly, or you'll go insane.

The automatic banning of all GamerGate threads on /v/ is pretty darn weird, I gotta say. It's not like 4chan has ever attempted to uphold an image of political correctness or PR-friendliness. I'm really curious to find out what the deal with that is.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: James on September 17, 2014, 11:20:55 PM
It's one particularly anti-GG mod. He's been so ban-happy that, when someone from Germany kept making topics, he banned THE ENTIRE COUNTRY.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Archaemic on September 18, 2014, 03:20:47 AM
bluh

fuck gamers

fuck gaming

the takeaway from this seems to be that gaming journalism sucks. which is not really at all surprising.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Keith Stack on September 18, 2014, 09:52:07 AM
Hey now, video games are pretty fun. Have you played that new Kirby game? It's pretty darn fun.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: James on September 18, 2014, 09:56:22 AM
And today moot declared himself brainwashed, and thus signed 4chan's death sentence.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Keith Stack on September 18, 2014, 10:59:21 AM
I think your statement might be a bit hyperbolic, and that 4chan will continue to be a popular website.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Sofox on September 18, 2014, 12:18:52 PM
It's still boggling my mind that 4chan is being censored or even people being blocked. Everything I heard about 4chan says it's an anarchic, totally anonymous venue where anyone can post anything, no matter in however poor taste, and not have to worry about anything.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Southbird on September 18, 2014, 12:52:13 PM
It's still boggling my mind that 4chan is being censored or even people being blocked. Everything I heard about 4chan says it's an anarchic, totally anonymous venue where anyone can post anything, no matter in however poor taste, and not have to worry about anything.

I thought the same... but 4chan sometimes does weird things on a whim, which actually probably isn't all that out of character overall...
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: James on September 18, 2014, 01:10:15 PM
I think your statement might be a bit hyperbolic, and that 4chan will continue to be a popular website.

You tell me that isn't the kind of hypocritical bullshit that would bring it down. (http://boards.4chan.org/v/thread/264185884)
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Keith Stack on September 18, 2014, 03:40:33 PM
Whatever you linked 404'd.

I assumed the threads were being deleted because of misogyny (which would be weird considered the amount of misogyny and racism throughout the site), but the announcement that they're banned to prevent raids and whatnot makes sense. I haven't read enough /v/ GamerGate threads to know if there's any merit to that claim, but people seem passionate enough about this that I'm sure they'll find some other means to collectively discuss it.

Claiming that moot was brainwashed and that 4chan has died seems a bit silly to spout. So does getting angry at GAMERS. People really get heated over us-versus-them politics, and it always feels detrimental to their cause. I can't think of anyone who's ever won a debate or changed someone's mind by getting really frustrated and calling people names.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: James on September 18, 2014, 03:46:05 PM
There isn't. He HAS been brainwashed. He attended a conference hosted by one of the biggest SJW distracters that the movement has had. His statement that he made runs counterpoint to literally EVERYTHING that 4chan as a whole has accomplished.

The link I provided? It was supposed to go to his statement that was stickied on /v/.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: H Hog on September 18, 2014, 03:51:12 PM
It's still boggling my mind that 4chan is being censored or even people being blocked. Everything I heard about 4chan says it's an anarchic, totally anonymous venue where anyone can post anything, no matter in however poor taste, and not have to worry about anything.

That's just /b/.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Archaemic on September 18, 2014, 04:02:58 PM
When you say that you hate SJWs, what I hear is that you hate anyone who tries to promote fair treatment of everyone, whether they be black, white, asian, latino, gay, bi, lesbian, straight, transgender, non-binary, cisgendered or anything.

When you say brainwashed, what I hear is that his opinions have changed and you can only attribute it to unethical tactics and propagandism invented by the Chinese during the cold war.

When you say everything that 4chan has accomplished, what I hear is promoting hatred and intolerance, and using harassment and "doxing" as rhetoric.

Are you sure this is what you mean? Could you please clarify if it's not what you meant?

If any of this is actually what you mean…geez, wow.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: James on September 18, 2014, 04:22:53 PM
Don't put words in my mouth, fucky.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Keith Stack on September 18, 2014, 04:26:28 PM
There isn't. He HAS been brainwashed. He attended a conference hosted by one of the biggest SJW distracters that the movement has had.
So by brainwashed you mean he had his beliefs and opinions swayed by a conference?

I can't imagine it changed him that much, considering he still runs a site where you can tell women to show their tits or gtfo, or complain about Jews ruining everything.

It seems more likey that he wanted to avoid any legal danger zones associated with a movement possibly containing hackings, doxxings, etc.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: James on September 18, 2014, 04:36:07 PM
I'm done. I can't keep going on here. There is only so much willful ignorance that someone with communication problems can put up with. Go fucking bother Sofox while not bothering to look up anything that never fits your fucking worldviews.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Keith Stack on September 18, 2014, 04:47:48 PM
fucky
This may be one of the funniest names I've ever heard someone called.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Keith Stack on September 18, 2014, 04:50:51 PM
I hope that people are still allowed to post really bad examples of video game journalism on /v/. Those are usually pretty funny.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Archaemic on September 18, 2014, 05:12:08 PM
Don't put words in my mouth, fucky.

I asked you to tear down or clarify on my words. You appear to have voluntarily declined.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: James on September 18, 2014, 05:21:10 PM
I'm too PISSED to do any of that. I get that way when someone decides to insult me. Happens in flesh-and-blood, happens online. I have communication problems, and this is just one of them.

If you even bothered to give any bit of a shit and look up ANYTHING, you would know that isn't the case. As it stands, all you've done is piss me off to the point where I just wanna fucking QUIT this board.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Keith Stack on September 18, 2014, 05:44:22 PM
When you say that you hate SJWs, what I hear is that you hate anyone who tries to promote fair treatment of everyone, whether they be black, white, asian, latino, gay, bi, lesbian, straight, transgender, non-binary, cisgendered or anything.
I don't think everyone who believes in equality is considered to be a SJW, just those who blow inconsequential matters up into something more than they should be.

Of course what is and is not inconsequential is always up for debate.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Archaemic on September 18, 2014, 06:13:01 PM
I don't think everyone who believes in equality is considered to be a SJW, just those who blow inconsequential matters up into something more than they should be.

Of course what is and is not inconsequential is always up for debate.

I'm a bit divided on that, personally. I've definitely seen people who get way too loud about it, and end up screaming out people who would otherwise be willing to listen (which is not productive), but there are definitely people who are way too lax about it and just hold opinions instead of trying to promote the opinions. The exact definition of SJW is...well, there is no exact definition because people on different sides use it differently. Some people use it as a derogatory for people who are too loud and spew hate back in the face of hate, while others just use it as a term to mean social justice advocates. It's a dicey term, to be sure.

Also, James, I'm sorry to have gotten you so heated. I'm not trying to get you angry or personally insult you. I'm just really uneasy with how you seem to be presenting this information. You're using very strong terms for things that seem to be implying that you hold beliefs that I really don't like, regardless of if they're associated with Gamergate or what the facts of that are. That's why I wanted you to clarify.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: James on September 18, 2014, 06:25:19 PM
To fully explain what's been going on with the whole thing is too long for a single post. This campaign has had so many facets and has gone on for so long that I am literally unable to explain it by myself because, as Sofox brought up, it's gotten that fucking huge. That is why I linked to a Wiki that collects all of the information that people fighting in GamerGate have come across.

And for the record, when I bring up SJW in a negative context, it's that former definition you bring up and not the latter. Because of Sarkeesian's attention-grabbing involvement (mainly to draw attention away from people investigating the PR firm she'd been working with, Silverstring Media), a whole load of THOSE kinds of SJWs got involved and started bashing the movement, combined with journos deciding to call all gamers "white male basement-dwelling misogynistic neckbeards" or whatever else along those lines. It is because of this that the subtag #NotYourShield became almost as common to use alongside #GamerGate.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: James on September 19, 2014, 08:07:49 PM
Straight from an inner circle. (https://www.8chan.co/gg/res/6054.html)
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Sofox on September 19, 2014, 10:40:01 PM
Hmm, the post had me at first, but for some reason it didn't quite click with me as it went on. I'm not sure what's going on.


Meanwhile, I've been looking over a bit more of the leaked emails from that game journalist email group (GameJournoPros), and Kyle Orland's Ars "apology" post that responded to how the leak portrayed him, and came away unsatisfied. Firstly, I'm confused about the "game devs against harassment" petition, which we assumed earlier was masterminded by him and organised through the mailing list based on quotes. We know he suggested an open letter against harassment as a way to support Zoe, but the full emails show that the response from others in the GameJournoPros wasn't that supportive (interestingly, the only female in the list who responded turned down the idea "for a variety of reasons"). In his response post, he claims it was an idea that he came up with in the head of the moment, but didn't gain any support with the group, the leak somewhat bears this out. However, later a petition similar to what he came up with appears on various gaming sites. I'm of the opinion that someone in that game journalist group thought it was a good idea and brought it to fruition, but who, and if they didn't organise it with the mailing list, then with who?

Next up is that the list doesn't explain the Aug 28th "Death of Gamer" articles, where within 48 hours, over 12 publication published articles that implied that the term "gamer" was dead. The timing definitely indicates some degree of collusion or organisation, but it doesn't seem to have come from the mailing list. I read one or two responses in the GameJournoPros list that indicated surprise at the Leigh Alexander's "Death of Gamer" article. If they'd had a hand in creating it, they would have had a different response.

So there are other players in the game we haven't figured out yet. If it's worth anything, Kyle Orland, in his "apology" post, said that the two GamerGate articles, one of which was a "Death of Gamer" article (http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2014/08/the-death-of-the-gamers-and-the-women-who-killed-them/), were suggested by Culture Editor Casey Johnston. Both articles were biased, which suggests she believed strongly in what she was writing, but was she just copying all the other "Death of Gamer" articles, or would she know something about the coordination of so many similar articles around the same time?

Long story short: If there's a "conspiracy" that's propelling GamerGate, I don't think GameJournoPros is it.

PS. As always, be good to other people on the internet. And even if you disagree with them, respect them. Since I've written a lot here about GamerGate, I just don't want people thinking I'm somehow pro-harassment. At this stage enough info has come out that it's become like an interesting puzzle to solve, but with so many gaps in information, it's become easy for people to imagine the picture as how they want to see it, rather than how it actually is. A trap you must be careful not to fall into.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: James on September 19, 2014, 11:10:04 PM
What's going on is a good chunk of people in the thread doubting him, but he'll be uploading proof there tomorrow.

Also I'm assuming you're referring to the massive dump that Milo put up on his own site?
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Sofox on September 20, 2014, 01:20:00 AM
Yeah, this one: http://yiannopoulos.net/2014/09/19/gamejournopros-zoe-quinn-email-dump/
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Sofox on September 20, 2014, 08:44:02 PM
The Escapist site has been DDOSed *sigh* It was one of the few places that was allowing an open discussion on GamerGate, and of course the Editor argued in favour of keeping it open in that email list I linked.

Stupid move really, it breaks down the illusion that there's any "good" side, which makes it harder for people to believe they have the moral highground by taking a side. What's more, one of the most powerful things on the non-GamerGate side was that the gaming journalists were content to ignore the issue and wait for it to die down. However, that attitude combined with all the other events they decided not to report on (TFYC, IGF corruption, etc.) has built up to the point where now they either have to break their stance or ignore that a fellow gaming journalist site was taken down maliciously. Where is this all leading?
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: James on September 21, 2014, 11:07:27 AM
At this point, nobody can really say. The sad thing is that all the journo sites involved decided to start pushing a stupid hashtag called GamerTruce, in which they want things to return to the status quo.

FUCK the status quo. It was broken years ago, and it's broken now.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Sofox on September 21, 2014, 04:35:54 PM
I looked up the tag and I can only find one or two people actually proposing the tag, the rest were "we're not taking this" sort of talk. Are we sure this is the work of more than one person?
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: James on September 21, 2014, 05:36:25 PM
Are you sure you're not just viewing the Top posts instead of All posts? I mean, if not, then ignoring it has been working better than I thought.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Sofox on September 21, 2014, 06:45:32 PM
Ah, I didn't notice the Top/All option. Checking it again...

Okay, it seems like #GamerTruce was started by Gail Simone. Not a journalist, but a comic book writer. She has a lot of twitter followers, so for the hour after floating her suggestion, about 7 people chimed in showing their support. Then Adam Baldwin tweeted the tag, asking the difference between Justice and Social Justice; and from that point it's mostly pro-GamerGate tweets about how they won't give in and so forth.

So yeah, my view is that #GamerTruce comes more from a position of naivety than anything else; but the suggestion that it's something started by games journalists seems untrue.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: James on September 22, 2014, 12:20:19 AM
Given how Simone's been very cautious overall regarding her involvement in this, it's not surprising to find that out.

I'm just gonna chalk this up to tag hijacking.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: James on September 22, 2014, 08:53:00 AM
It just keeps happening. (http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-London/2014/09/22/They-re-on-to-us-gaming-journalists-respond-to-their-critics-in-series-of-new-GameJournoPros-emails)

Keeps happening. (http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-London/2014/09/21/GameJournoPros-we-reveal-every-journalist-on-the-list)

KEEPS happening. (http://blogjob.com/oneangrygamer/2014/09/gamergate-its-not-over-until-someone-goes-to-prison-says-game-journalist/)
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: James on September 26, 2014, 12:43:57 AM
A summary of events so far. (http://daddywarpig.wordpress.com/2014/09/23/gamergate-achievement-unlocked-epic-shitstorm/)
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: AnKylo on September 29, 2014, 01:16:56 PM
I've noticed Cracked's been doing articles about it too, even giving Zoe Quinn an article she titled "5 Things I Learned as the Most Hated Person on the Internet." I know that people have been doing shit they shouldn't (death threats, rape threats, etc.), but come on, seems a bit over the top to call yourself that.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Archaemic on September 29, 2014, 05:22:31 PM
Cracked's [...] but come on, seems a bit over the top [...]

Welcome to Cracked.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: James on September 29, 2014, 08:22:49 PM
>implying Cracked can be taken seriously anymore, especially since they don't do research and its head staff enjoy calling out GG people everywhere
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: H Hog on September 30, 2014, 03:22:02 PM
I've noticed Cracked's been doing articles about it too, even giving Zoe Quinn an article she titled "5 Things I Learned as the Most Hated Person on the Internet." I know that people have been doing shit they shouldn't (death threats, rape threats, etc.), but come on, seems a bit over the top to call yourself that.
Exaggeration for the sake of saucing up a headline is a thing that exists.
Not as many people would read an article entitled "5 things I learned as a sudden unexpected target of loathing for a very specific but also very vocal group of gamers on the internet".
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: James on October 01, 2014, 01:15:00 PM
H, you really don't wanna go there without reading about it. You REALLY don't.

Attention-grabbers are one of the big enemies of GG for a reason.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Archaemic on October 01, 2014, 06:04:25 PM
I'm still trying to figure out what the fuck "pro-GG" means.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Sofox on October 01, 2014, 06:09:13 PM
Well the pro-GG believes it means pushing for higher journalistic standards, being against corruption and against harassment.

The other side believes pro-GG means a bunch of misogynists.

There's more to it, but it's just gotten so messy at this stage.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Archaemic on October 01, 2014, 06:28:34 PM
You're gonna need to gut the entirety of the gaming journalism industry to have any semblance of standards. When "AAA" games have ads plastered all over the reviews, you have bigger problems than a few indie game devs.

But you should have all figured that out by now.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: James on October 01, 2014, 09:25:38 PM
We have. That's why we've been going after their sponsors and archiving their pages so that we don't give them the views. Hit them where it hurts - their wallets.

Speaking of, Intel has pulled its ads from Gamasutra. (http://techraptor.net/2014/10/01/gamasutra-intel/)
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Archaemic on October 01, 2014, 10:51:57 PM
So you're against harassment, but your techniques for trying to bring about change are harrying sponsors until they withdraw? Have you tried hitting ABOVE the belt, instead?

You don't bring about methodical change by bankrupting those you feel are doing things wrong. You bring it about by SOLVING THE ACTUAL INHERENT PROBLEMS.

Gamasutra is, in my experience, one of actually the few GOOD game journalism sites. But no, it's too controversial for a woman to write an opinion piece about harassment, so let's pull out from this entirely.

Grow up.

E] I need to stop viewing this thread, it's only painful. It's hard to look away though, when there's that [new] button :argh:
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: James on October 01, 2014, 11:01:59 PM
Never mind that the owner of Gamasutra was proven to be racist and continues to be.

Why don't YOU grow up and do some research.

Nearly all of the journos that have been involved in anti-GG have refused to change their stance even when it is blatantly clear that their audience won't stand for what they're doing.

By doing this, it forces them to either listen or get out.

And if they get out, then that's fine - we're getting more sites that are far more reliable in covering this stuff, like Niche Gamer and TechRaptor and even, as I said earlier, The Escapist with its new enforced ethics code.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Archaemic on October 01, 2014, 11:04:14 PM
(http://i.imgur.com/0o1uOPx.png)

Harassment is bad! Except when the pro-GGers do it, apparently.

Never mind that the owner of Gamasutra was proven to be racist and continues to be.

Why don't YOU grow up and do some research.

Ok, so get the owner thrown out and replaced. That is a thing that companies can do, you know...?

E] It's not even the owner, the complaint is literally about one person, Leigh Alexander. Who people just seem to continually "finding" problems with. All of the complaints seem to be very, very recent, and emanate from Reddit...hm...
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: James on October 01, 2014, 11:07:58 PM
You know that you linked someone who genuinely believes that Intel pulling its ads to not condone gamer-abuse articles is "political", do you? (https://twitter.com/Laroquod/status/517481841147019264)
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Archaemic on October 01, 2014, 11:10:02 PM
Does that make harassing them ok?
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: James on October 01, 2014, 11:10:46 PM
I'd demand proof that she was harassed by pro-GG people instead of her just saying it.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Archaemic on October 01, 2014, 11:13:37 PM
What the fuck is gamer abuse, anyway? Are you proclaiming to be part of some marginalized sect of mystical "gamers" now?

Also, why the fuck would she be lying about it anyway? An attempt to discredit people who HAVE BEEN DOING THIS TO OTHER PEOPLE, TOO? GEE.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Sofox on October 01, 2014, 11:14:36 PM
Arch... while I agree with your first two paragraphs, Leigh Alexandra has been... well the lightest I can put this is "very antagonistic" towards pro-GG people. She wrote one of the main "Gamers are dead" (http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/224400/Gamers_dont_have_to_be_your_audience_Gamers_are_over.php) articles, she was recently quoted as saying "I'm a megaphone, I will destroy you" to someone who challenged her opinion; and sure, while I'm slinging mud, I may as well throw in the fact that months ago she wrote an article attacking the Sonic fandom saying they suffered from arrested development and drew furry porn under the guise of game critique (she actually retweeted a tweet I made querying this stance, which was, surreal. Also got retweeted by MovieBob which stunned me a bit since I follow his stuff... okay.. anyway).

You're making good points Arch, but you're also making that classic mistake that's been one of the things that's constantly exacerbating GamerGate: You're assuming that if a woman is being attacked, it's only because she's female and not for any other reason. This, quite frankly, is sexist (ironically). If you really try to examining what Leigh Alexander has done in relation to GamerGate, and still determine that GG is overreacting, that's fine; but assuming without research that she's only being attacked because she's a woman is not getting us anywhere, and actually might be making things far worse.

In terms of sponsors, I understand its motivation, but I've never been entirely comfortable with it. I do think that people who advertise on a gaming website have a right to know what sort of issues or agendas may be raise by a site (particularly if it involves directly attacking its own readership), but to use your own phrase, it does seem below the belt.

In terms of fixing the problems, well in terms of not letting a few sites control game journalism, a new gaming site has been created, and several others have gotten more attention and been promoted for not instantly agreeing with the main sites. A lot of other stuff has been going on including the Escapist changing its terms and rules. Do you have any other suggestions for solutions to the various problems? I'd genuinely be interested in hearing them.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: James on October 01, 2014, 11:14:41 PM
So you follow the "listen and believe" school of thought.

Congratulations, my opinion of you can't get any lower.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Sofox on October 01, 2014, 11:15:31 PM
Please James, that attitude isn't going to get anyone to change their mind.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: James on October 01, 2014, 11:16:38 PM
Tell me then, Sofox: is it WRONG to demand actual proof of harassment instead of just claiming word-of-mouth?
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Archaemic on October 01, 2014, 11:27:31 PM
Arch... while I agree with your first two paragraphs, Leigh Alexandra has been... well the lightest I can put this is "very antagonistic" towards pro-GG people. She wrote one of the main "Gamers are dead" (http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/224400/Gamers_dont_have_to_be_your_audience_Gamers_are_over.php) articles, she was recently quoted as saying "I'm a megaphone, I will destroy you" to someone who challenged her opinion; and sure, while I'm slinging mud, I may as well throw in the fact that months ago she wrote an article attacking the Sonic fandom saying they suffered from arrested development and drew furry porn under the guise of game critique (she actually retweeted a tweet I made querying this stance, which was, surreal. Also got retweeted by MovieBob which stunned me a bit since I follow his stuff... okay.. anyway).

You're making good points Arch, but you're also making that classic mistake that's been one of the things that's constantly exacerbating GamerGate: You're assuming that if a woman is being attacked, it's only because she's female and not for any other reason. This, quite frankly, is sexist (ironically). If you really try to examining what Leigh Alexander has done in relation to GamerGate, and still determine that GG is overreacting, that's fine; but assuming without research that she's only being attacked because she's a woman is not getting us anywhere, and actually might be making things far worse.

I admit that I don't know much about HER PERSONALLY, but you know...it's not been just her. And which male targets have people been going after, other than Phil Fish? Who people seem to be going after because he defended someone...

In terms of sponsors, I understand its motivation, but I've never been entirely comfortable with it. I do think that people who advertise on a gaming website have a right to know what sort of issues or agendas may be raise by a site (particularly if it involves directly attacking its own readership), but to use your own phrase, it does seem below the belt.

In terms of fixing the problems, well in terms of not letting a few sites control game journalism, a new gaming site has been created, and several others have gotten more attention and been promoted for not instantly agreeing with the main sites. A lot of other stuff has been going on including the Escapist changing its terms and rules. Do you have any other suggestions for solutions to the various problems? I'd genuinely be interested in hearing them.

Unfortunately, there's very little that can be done without swaying the whole community. Which uh, is a very difficult thing to do, tbh. I can't think of anything specific, but I'm sure there are things that can be done.

So you follow the "listen and believe" school of thought.

Congratulations, my opinion of you can't get any lower.
If this is how you respond, then I don't want a high opinion from you. I certainly don't have one of you anymore.

Tell me then, Sofox: is it WRONG to demand actual proof of harassment instead of just claiming word-of-mouth?
She clearly faked it, and all of her followers are a vast conspiracy. Got it. (https://twitter.com/freebsdgirl/status/517458107203457024)
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: James on October 01, 2014, 11:31:24 PM
Still not showing me actual proof. Still going by word-of-mouth. You're not doing much to dissuade me from thinking you entirely follow "listen and believe".

You're honestly coming off to me as the bad kind of SJW right now - unwilling to do actual research and instead just blows everything shown to you off like it doesn't matter to your personal agenda.

To which I say - take your own advice and leave. You clearly don't want to bother putting in the effort to understand GG.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Sofox on October 02, 2014, 08:42:49 AM
I admit that I don't know much about HER PERSONALLY, but you know...it's not been just her. And which male targets have people been going after, other than Phil Fish? Who people seem to be going after because he defended someone...

Anthony Burch, Ben Kuchera, Nathan Grayson... who all are male and attacked by GamerGate; people even tried to get Anthony Burch fired partly because a friend of his officially reviewed a game that Burch's company made (a fact that he revealed prominently on his Twitter feed to "prove" that only females were being attacked by GamerGate). Also, Phil Fish didn't just defend someone (although his sparkling personality certainly gains attention), he's also had people who invested in his game act as judges in an indie game competition, and Phil even seemed to move the release date of Fez to take advantage of that fact.

Meanwhile females such as Christina Hoff Sommers are hugely appreciated by pro-GamerGate people. #notyourshield shows a lot of females supporting GamerGate, some of whom have been harassed by the anti-GamerGate side.

She clearly faked it, and all of her followers are a vast conspiracy. Got it. (https://twitter.com/freebsdgirl/status/517458107203457024)

When Anita Sarkeesian claimed she received death threats near the start of GamerGate, and had contacted the authorities, several people pointed out that this didn't make sense. The clear procedure when authorities are told about death threats is to let the person know not to mention it to anyone, especially not post it on Twitter. Later someone phoned the local police station to Anita (I won't argue that some of these methods aren't a bit creepy, but others would argue that this is what journalists should have been doing in the first place when reporting on the situation), the police officer said they had heard from Anita about threats earlier in March, but nothing more recent had come in. Gaming website articles on Anita's harassment became massive and was one of the things propelling the Death of Gamer articles, and fuelling anti-GG articles and movements to this day, so it's incredibly frustrating that the incident itself hasn't been officially confirmed, and any little evidence that there is says it hasn't happened. I noticed a similar problem with the sources of one incident Zoe Quinn's harassment in her Wikipedia talk page: The only source that she had been harassed was her Twitter, or interviews with here. Despite several articles reporting on it from many news sites, none of them had researched it beyond asking her whether it happened or looked for a secondary source. This is a bad precedent to have in any journalistic field, it opens it up to be easily manipulated, or at least greatly influenced by only a few people.

Now unfortunately, all the above has led to people like James instantly dismissing any claim of harassment as false or demanding proof. I'd agree for high profile cases, journalists should confirm the story from multiple sources as a matter of course since it affects a lot of people and they should confirm its true, but for most people on the internet they're just... well, people. After mentioning you were harassed or bullied, the last thing you want is a bunch of people questioning your honesty. So what is the response? Support someone and run the risk it's all a ploy and they're manipulating you and other people into giving attention? Or demand proof of their claim and have someone who's broken down and been receiving a huge amount of abuse suddenly receive what accounts as more abuse along with an attack on their credibility and absolutely no sympathy which could have been the one thing that could have really helped them in this bad time?

Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Sofox on October 04, 2014, 06:47:55 AM
Some thougths:

I think this article clearly explains what a lot of pro-GG people are feeling (ie., less about the goals of diversity, but the methods): http://unprofessionalportfolio.wordpress.com/2014/10/03/an-issue-with-agendas/

Of course, if you've been following about the news you'd know about the Intel/Gamasutra thing. Feel a bit bad for Intel, they were clearly trying to avoid controversy and just stepped into more controversy. One of the few tech companies with a female president and it gets accused of supporting misogyny. Gonna make it harder for other companies to withdraw advertising.

Finally, something is concerning me, I've believed that the IGF corruption and Phil Fish's alleged fraud (and it not being reported) is one of the most important issues raised by GamerGate. This article explains the deal: http://gamesnosh.com/fez-investors-outed-judges-2011-igf-award/ However, scroll to the bottom. The two sources it links to that provided material for the article have both become broken/inaccessible. I know those sources existed because I looked at them when they came out, so why have they been removed?
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: James on October 04, 2014, 09:37:37 AM
It's like how Silverstring Media removed their staff page so that nobody could look up their connections through conventional methods.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: James on October 05, 2014, 07:08:46 PM
You know what's really irritating? Seeing people who constantly critique GG's methods without understanding that the pro-GGs have TRIED simply talking and asking for civil discussion, and were promptly spat in their faces several times over.

You know what's also really irritating? Seeing these same people have the exact same argument but phrasing the initial question differently every. Single. Fucking. Time.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Sofox on October 06, 2014, 07:52:07 PM
This is positive, The Verge, which previously... hadn't been the most supportive of GamerGate, have actually opened a thread specifically for discussing GamerGate. It's not the most progressive, but, ah well: http://archive.today/VNvWt#selection-4161.4-4167.61

You know, sometimes I worry that what I say can... well, spur on bad behaviour, or end up missing a serious point that could lead to people getting hurt, but I've always been a strong believer in discussion and dialogue, because we're all human beings and by talking we can understand things and help get a better idea of where the real problems are.

I guess what I'm saying is that, out of all the things of GamerGate, it's the feeling you couldn't discuss a certain topic or put forward a given viewpoint that scared me the most (Reddit discussions nuked, RPS closing comment threads, Kotaku not reporting on multiple serious issues raiseed, Escapist being pressured to close GamerGate thread), and the above link is a hope that this trend is finally reversing.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: James on October 06, 2014, 10:14:07 PM
Also TotalBiscuit was swayed into supporting GG after seeing the douchebag from Dell comparing GG to ISIS. Granted, said douchebag has been reported directly to Dell management so he's screwed.

Also also another sponsor gone from Gamasutra - the University of Advanced Technology. Leigh has been livid and drunk on Twitter.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Sofox on October 07, 2014, 05:21:39 AM
The Dell employee is kinda curious to me. Part of me feel that it's a weird effect of being screwed over by your own side. In order to support anti-GG, a person creates a biased account of what's going on, which the Dell guy takes as truth and ends up in far hotter water than he was expecting. On the other hand, while we all get misled from time to time, it's our own responsibility to do research and gaining understanding before vehemently speaking out on any given topic.

Also, making blanket insults, especially referring to serious terrorist groups, is maybe something you should you'd want to approach with caution.

TotalBiscuit has never been committed to either side. In general, the YouTubers seem neutral ground, they don't fall into the gaming journalist groupthink, but I haven't seen many of the actively promote GG either (which in fairness, is probably a smart move, go too far with either side and you can become a bit crazy).
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: James on October 08, 2014, 03:27:19 PM
You missed the point where I said that he's now supporting GG... which I find odd because it was in the first sentence of my last post - same as the Dell douche.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Sofox on October 08, 2014, 05:49:42 PM
I'd read some posts by him and I thought you were referring to those. If you could link to his support post it would be helpful, thanks.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: James on October 08, 2014, 06:26:55 PM
He's been really active on Twitter up until his surgery, so it takes a lot of digging to get to those specific posts. Will this screencap do? (http://i.imgur.com/LzvUN38.png)
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Sofox on October 09, 2014, 06:35:58 AM
The screencap is good, but he's not so much supporting GG, as he is taking issue with anti-GG people for using ISIS in their arguments. Just because you argue against one side, doesn't mean you're supporting the other.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: James on October 09, 2014, 10:03:12 AM
Well, in other news, an LGBTQ account called GaymerX was bullied by anti-GG out of their stance of peaceful neutrality yesterday. GG heard about it and condolences have been flying in all over.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Sofox on October 09, 2014, 07:08:43 PM
https://twitter.com/GaymerX/status/520057707886170112 - "We do NOT support #GamerGate and officially denounce their activities."

You have to understand, they're not exactly in a position to burn bridges with anyone with the LGBTQ community.

Christina Love encouraged them to change their position, even going for the full denouncement rather than simple lack of support, I liked her game Digital: A Love Story. Haven't caught up on any of her games since then though...
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: James on October 09, 2014, 09:48:16 PM
And in more positive news, the Thunderclap that was organized for the movement ended today, at nearly 750% its goal.

A social spread of nearly 2 million people.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: David The Lurker on October 09, 2014, 11:20:42 PM
oh is this still a thing
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: James on October 10, 2014, 06:10:49 AM
Don't go sounding all shocked and everything. XP
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Sofox on October 10, 2014, 07:59:36 AM
David, as we've mentioned before, one of the unique characteristics of GamerGate is how none of the mainstream gaming sites (RPS, Kotaku, Polygon, etc.) are actually reporting on ANYTHING going on in GamerGate giving the illusion that not much is going on or that it's died down (which may be their intent). They maintain this silence even when GamerGate does things so big that other, less-gaming related sites report on it, such as with the Intel thing which was reported here (http://games-beta.slashdot.org/story/14/10/02/1558213/intel-drops-gamasutra-sponsorship-over-controversial-editorials) and here (http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2014/10/intel-folds-under-gamergate-pressure-pulls-ads-from-gamasutra/).

The whole thing leads to a lot of people being uninformed in this debate, leading to some to angrily state their opinion when they're missing a lot of facts about what's going on. This arguing without facts leads to more animosity in return which leads the the anger and "war" to be propagated even more. In short, the lack of reporting is, in my opinion, leading this controversy to be extended, rather than die down.

Kinda a screw up for everyone involved really.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Sofox on October 10, 2014, 08:17:20 AM
Oh, I kinda like this video, just two guys discussing their take on "Gamer": http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/no-right-answer/9790-Are-Gamers-Dead
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Sofox on October 11, 2014, 11:54:21 AM
Escapist publish their follow up, after asking female game developers for their stance on GamerGate, now asking male developers: http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/video-games/features/12383-Game-Developer-GamerGate-Interviews-Shed-Light-on-Women-in-Games?utm_source=latest&utm_medium=index_carousel&utm_campaign=all
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Sofox on October 12, 2014, 08:32:40 PM
You know what would be cool? Just having a great big video game tournament with all the major GamerGate figures participating, and let the issue be resolved that way.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: James on October 12, 2014, 09:09:23 PM
If only...
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: James on October 14, 2014, 11:49:32 PM
And now today, Twitter went fucking mental.

If you'll excuse me, I have a headache I need to sleep off.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: SuitCase on October 15, 2014, 12:35:37 AM
oh my god james

this is a stupid movement supported by stupid people. it’s steeped in regressive, anti-intellectual, closed-minded thought and is energised by the dumbest bullshit

here is my litmus test for #gamers:

“is it a good thing that the anita sarkeesian tropes vs women videos are being produced?”

i have yet to meet a gamergater who can answer yes, and after immersing myself in the /v/ threads and IRC and hashtags to try and figure out why this is, it became clear to me why so many cannot

it seems like an unrelated matter, but that’s why it’s such a great test. it exposes their choice to embrace this mean, horrible, conservative streak that can be so easily awakened through the fear of outsiders. it places this debate as a part of the natural evolution of the medium and makes it clear which side of history a person is on. don’t be on the side of people dumber than you

P.S. zoe quinn’s an annoying bitch, the brianna wu thing was overblown and game journalism is a joke
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Matt_TY on October 15, 2014, 05:09:33 AM
But Suitsy, that's exactly the sort of false dichotomy that serves to radicalise both sides if the debate. You can disagree with Anita Sarkeesian's videos whilst still supporting the basic conclusions drawn and supporting the idea of a conversation abour misogyny in gaming.
It's the radicalisation of debate that's the real problem: it turns the potential for serious discussion of two very real issues into this almost political, mud-slinging, us vs. them shitfight
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: James on October 15, 2014, 04:21:03 PM
And now webcomic people are against it and don't want to listen.

Why is it so hard to like things nowadays?
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: SuitCase on October 15, 2014, 04:30:31 PM
no, it exposes how much a person has been swindled into reactionary thinking! the tropes vs women videos are mild and neutral and don't really have anything to say that isn't mostly obvious. babby's first feminist critique

it's the kind of thing that you get exposed to in high school english class nowadays. it's not radical or controversial in any other context but video games

the reason it works is that this is such a dull baseline test for enlightenment that to fail it should exclude you from the conversation. the threshold could barely be lower

And now webcomic people are against it and don't want to listen.

Why is it so hard to like things nowadays?
webcomic people are fuckin idiots
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: James on October 15, 2014, 04:56:32 PM
Now that's no way to talk about your wife.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Matt_TY on October 16, 2014, 05:23:34 AM
Suitsy: being moderate in your conclusions doesn't exclude you from criticism. If I say that one plus one is two, but that I got to that point by counting the number of puppies I kicked, that still warrants some questioning glances.

I still maintain that it is entirely possible to disagree with specific examples or methodologies used by an argument without disagreeing with the basic point of the argument as a whole. I've heard it said that the "misogyny in gaming is bad" is a "blue sky" argument in that it is right and there is no valid counter-argument to it; you don't give equal time to someone who claims the sky is red. Well that's... actually true. Misogyny in gaming is unequivocably there and unequivocably a bad thing that needs dealing with. But you can point out clouds in the sky without claiming that the sky is red. It's the false dichomotomy again; either you agree with US and everything WE say or you must be one of THEM the evil THEM burn the THEM

The sad part of course is that this whole thing on both sides isn't even really about misogyny or games journalism anymore; it's all about how good WE are and how bad THEY are. It's like the American primaries we once commented on, where all actual policies are thrown out the window and the debate is about how Candidate X once got drunk and abusive at a bar in 1975 because that's CLEARLY the important bit. And in the meantime if you want to talk about maybe putting Ivy from Soul Calibur into something that actually resembles clothing, or how perhaps people reviewing Shadow of Mordor before release should actually be allowed to honestly critique the game, well, that's lost in the noise.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Sofox on October 16, 2014, 06:18:05 AM
Yeah, the churn and the yelling is seriously reaching new heights. Both sides have fantastically legitimate issues that for the most part aren't mutually exclusive, but...
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: yaj on October 16, 2014, 10:13:19 AM
I thought this was more of an Internet drama in fight thing, but when browsing thehuffingpost,  I found this. (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/10/15/female-gamers-gamergate_n_5990310.html) It's kind of interesting how this is starting to leak into the mainstream media.

Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: James on October 16, 2014, 12:47:46 PM
Only reason it even got that far was because a particular woman named Brianna Wu decided to pull an Anita and run & blame GG after receiving abuse from a suspiciously-new account that had no mention of GG at all. Keep in mind that she publically admitted previously to creating a sockpuppet account in an attempt to weaken GG.

So she comes back and decides to use her "pull" to get onto every major media outlet that she can, thanks to connections through MSNBC. Downside is that it leads to a LOT of unfair coverage. Because of this, the tag is currently being slammed by newcomers who don't even really know how the whole thing actually started.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Sz on October 16, 2014, 08:53:30 PM
oh my god james

this is a stupid movement supported by stupid people. it’s steeped in regressive, anti-intellectual, closed-minded thought and is energised by the dumbest bullshit

here is my litmus test for #gamers:

“is it a good thing that the anita sarkeesian tropes vs women videos are being produced?”

Considering what's happened as a result, probably not.

Oh no I am anti-intellectual!
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: SuitCase on October 17, 2014, 03:43:25 AM
matt: it seems like you don't like my litmus test for confusing reasons i cannot decode. (you have issues that for anyone to reply "no" would imply they are clearly wrong? that's the point!) i think you got confused somewhere

i agree with your last paragraph about how it's all about being RIGHT and showing others are WRONG though. all this unnecessary drama brings out the basest tendencies of everyone involved (see: critiques of tumblr social justice culture)

james: i don't think brianna wu is an evil puppetmaster, she's just a bit of an overemotional wreck who leaps to conclusions and easy answers. i saw the doxxing and harassment go down on 8chan and it was both hilarious (the flooding of the meme generator thing) and frustrating. she’s just an imbecile

but don't take the behaviour of people like her as evidence that she's on the wrong side of it all. gamergate is still fucking stupid

sz: hard not to see "what's happened" as a wonderful development for this fledgling medium. if i were her, id be super proud of my influence and contribution
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Matt_TY on October 17, 2014, 06:16:56 AM
Suitsy: the reason is that "well, not entirely" and "yes, with reservations" are valid answers too, and you don't get to do this all-or-nothing thing (and neither do the #gamergate people, for that matter). I agree with you that it's a good thing that a conversation about misogyny in games is happening. I support Anita's right to make videos without agreeing to every single thing she says. Can we settle for that?

james: other side bad. we get it. say how your side good. enough them. talk about you.



 
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: SuitCase on October 17, 2014, 01:08:22 PM
“is it a good thing that the anita sarkeesian tropes vs women videos are being produced?”

what does this question have to do with “all or nothing”? the point is that it’s obviously good they exist no matter whether or not you have reservations or don’t entirely agree with them. being scared to say “yes” implicates you as overdefensive and likely swept up in the crazy movement
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: James on October 17, 2014, 03:24:04 PM
Here's my answer: the question is invalid in regards to dealing with journalistic corruption and harassment.

And speaking of, today Gawker lost Mercedes Benz as a sponsor. That's what happens when you have your staff tweet idiotic statements like "Bring Back Bullying" during Bullying Prevention Month.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Sofox on October 17, 2014, 04:44:31 PM
I have a fondness for when people with conflict over the internet actually talk over the phone. I think this is a touching story, regardless of your position on the issue:

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B0KuHd7IcAA_9DH.jpg:large)
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Sz on October 17, 2014, 08:38:33 PM
sz: hard not to see "what's happened" as a wonderful development for this fledgling medium. if i were her, id be super proud of my influence and contribution

Which is... what? What have we realized as a result of this?

I guess I can take a stab, because there's one thing she's effectively done: by becoming the lightning rod and forming [whatever the opposite of a cult of personality is] among a very specific (and dangerous, unfortunately) group of people, she's kept the issue of women in gaming in the news.

Bearing in mind that women in gaming isn't really the problem, it's women in engineering. Which in turn spirals into the lunacy of modern gender roles, and little boys playing with legos while little girls play with barbies, etc etc

“is it a good thing that the anita sarkeesian tropes vs women videos are being produced?”

what does this question have to do with “all or nothing”? the point is that it’s obviously good they exist no matter whether or not you have reservations or don’t entirely agree with them. being scared to say “yes” implicates you as overdefensive and likely swept up in the crazy movement

From a purely utilitarian perspective, I'm not sure that rousing the ire of a demographic of lonely, misunderstood people who generally live at the fringe of civilized society is the best plan.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Matt_TY on October 17, 2014, 09:25:50 PM
Suitsy: I'm not "swept along" in anything. I am not part of #gamergate, nor do I intend to be. I am not scared to say an unequivocal "yes", I am refusing to because it is in my opinion not the right answer. I have reservations about some of the things she says and some of the ways she goes about it and some of the reactions her followers have to any critique of her videos. Also, as much as I'd love to believe that the pond scum that made Retribution: Ride to Hell are going to look at her videos and say "Of course! Now I see the light!" I don't think this is going to do the job and I put far more credence for industry change in things like magazines outright encouraging people not to buy Dead or Alive Xtreme 2 as the sad masturbation fodder that it is. Unfortunately all the game journalists are too busy going "look at THEM the evil THEM burn the THEM" and not actually helping in any way. And I can't believe that the journos are actually going to start calling out AAA titles about this as long as they're getting paid to say nice things - much easier to blame the gamers as they only pay the journos indirectly.

Again, it is a good thing that a conversation about misogyny in gaming is had. Not the argument everyone is currently having.

I think what I'd like to see from the conversation is a video that points out the tropes in play but also holds up some examples of what the industry does right and what to do more of (i.e." Hey, see how the Civ: Beyond Earth female leaders - of which there are multiple - actually dress and act like human beings? Good. Let's see more characters like that.") As I said to James: yes, THEY are bad. We get it. Now let's see some good.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Matt_TY on October 17, 2014, 09:55:22 PM
I have a fondness for when people with conflict over the internet actually talk over the phone. I think this is a touching story, regardless of your position on the issue:

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B0KuHd7IcAA_9DH.jpg:large)

This is the best thing so far to come out of this whole mess.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: James on October 18, 2014, 01:01:39 PM
So nothing about the donations towards charities focused on The Fine Young Capitalists, suicide prevention, or bullying prevention, then?

Nor the #GamerFruit project that came about by accident? The one where the one who came up with it plans to donate 50% of in-app-purchase funds to fruit importers to help deal with world hunger? Or even the charity that actually came from THAT idea?

That post is the best thing to come out of the whole thing to you?
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Keith Stack on October 18, 2014, 03:54:35 PM
Which side am I supposed to sign up for if I am both pro-corruption and misogynistic?
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: SuitCase on October 19, 2014, 04:19:29 AM
Bearing in mind that women in gaming isn't really the problem, it's women in engineering. Which in turn spirals into the lunacy of modern gender roles, and little boys playing with legos while little girls play with barbies, etc etc
yeah she should stop spending all her time agitating gamers and make a feminist video about lego

god this place is a shithole
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Zodberg on October 19, 2014, 10:05:31 AM
"Hey, so about Gamersgate where a girl had to leave her house..."

"Oh, she was a gamer and she couldn't get through her front gate?"

"No, it's like watergate."

"A water-gate? she lived in a dam?"

"No, the watergate HOTEL"

"Oh, after she left her house, she went to the hotel where Nixon was shot?"

"No, that's where the Nixon scandal happened! You know, the journalists Woodward and Bernstein!"

"Oh yeah, game journalists are so corrupt."


Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: James on October 19, 2014, 11:02:27 AM
Why are you even here then, Suitcase? Are you a fan of anal?

Y'know, 'cuz you're a dick?
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: 0005 maS maS on October 19, 2014, 11:51:56 AM
I've avoided posting in this topic because of the obviously high emotions that fly and rage in a "debate" like this. But I've had to break my pact to myself to tell you, James... your smack-talk is awful, dude.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Matt_TY on October 19, 2014, 12:42:19 PM
James: Well it's hard to see the better stuff happening when you go to check what's happening on Twitter and it's 95% US vs. THEM nonsense. GUess you have to have good timing, or ride with either side more closely than I intend. Also I concur with the above - "yeah, well you're a dick" isn't exactly Oscar Wilde.
Suitsy: Wow dude, really? I know this place is often home to the finals of Olympic-level Conclusion Long Jump but... wow. "There is sexism in society as a whole that has long discouraged women from programming*, therefore GAMES ARE FINE STOP ANNOYING US?" Just... wow.
Keith: I think you have to go into talkback radio in that case.


*hell, even Ada Lovelace had to go by her initials when publishing papers
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: James on October 19, 2014, 01:10:15 PM
I never claimed to be eloquent when dealing with things that irk me.

And speaking of, another GG charity started up. This time it's about autism research.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: SuitCase on October 19, 2014, 04:11:03 PM
hitler donated to charity too
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Sofox on October 19, 2014, 05:25:35 PM
James: I'm sounding like a broken record asking you to link to the stuff you talk about, and I'm not saying I'm better, but please especially when you're talking about charities, please link to the stuff you're talking about. Remember, the people in this thread can't easily find the stuff you're talking about, and in any event, linking directly to a source will automatically boost whatever argument you're making.

Suit: You're meant to use Al Capone for examples of "people who donate to charity can still be bad people", you use Hitler for "people who are vegetarians can still be bad people."
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Matt_TY on October 19, 2014, 05:48:24 PM
But who would win in a fight between Al Capone and Hitler?
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Luckett on October 19, 2014, 06:57:51 PM
Where else could that snippet have been from. I knew. Of course I knew. My precious babies.

Gamergate was doomed from the start, like any fucking "conversation" on twitter. Lets unite under a banner where any anonymous nutbag or group thereof can drag any well intentioned initial debate kicking and screaming into inevitable internet shitageddon.

Thats also the problem with any other banner mind. The feminist side also has its own share of the bad eggs, and so it all turns into what a war would look like if two toilets filled with turds from opposite dimensions began to phase-space into each other, one swirling one way, the other counter to it. A never ending cyclone of butt-spawn, smashing up against its equal and opposing force. Stare into it for too long yourself, and your face will be covered in the fallout. A shitspray of multidimensional origin, Ray.

I do feel bad for some of the Gamergaters though. Its like this was the first big-time they understood that an industry or social group of individuals inevitably falls into clique-dom. This was the first crystal clear moment where the horrible truth of human tribalism came into focus, and it was... about precious videogames. Now they had to start piecing everything else together, why they werent offered that promotion, why they were always picked last in sports, and so on. Then cometh the rage. Where will it all go? What channel of expression will they be able to funnel their emotions through and return to stability?

Not ONE but TWO RELEASES OF SMASH BROTHERS!
(http://i.imgur.com/Va8fFeM.gif)
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Keith Stack on October 19, 2014, 07:29:04 PM
Why are you even here then, Suitcase? Are you a fan of anal?

Y'know, 'cuz you're a dick?

DAAAAMN.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: yaj on October 19, 2014, 08:06:28 PM
i still don't understand how this got as much attention as it did, since what it all boils down to is some woman got a positive review for a game that nobody even knows about, which may not have been impartial. i thought all the kids these days were playing space invaders, or uh..ya know, grand theft elmo.

maybe that's just a small part of an even smaller part. and inside of that smaller part is a fraction that is even smaller.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Sz on October 19, 2014, 08:40:33 PM
yeah she should stop spending all her time agitating gamers and make a feminist video about lego

god this place is a shithole

Here, I'll put this in suitcase terms:

Learn to read, you dumb motherfucker! I don't know what they teach in Australia (maybe Matt can elucidate?), but it seems your ability to comprehend the meaning of sentences is lacking, and I'm not sure we can continue this conversation like grownups until you retreat back to the warm confines of remedial english.

These insults are meant to be partially joking, in that I'm not actually mad, but I do mean them! God damn, how did you even get there from what I wrote?
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Sz on October 19, 2014, 08:53:12 PM
Incidentally, topic relevant (IMO, but what do I know!)

(http://i.imgur.com/5Ue19ny.png)
http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2014/10/17/356944145/episode-576-when-women-stopped-coding

... which may have something to do with gender roles in gaming?


Alternatively, we can talk about how Al Capone would totally kick Hitler's ass, on the logical basis of USA USA USA
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Sofox on October 19, 2014, 09:17:51 PM
i still don't understand how this got as much attention as it did, since what it all boils down to is some woman got a positive review for a game that nobody even knows about, which may not have been impartial.

That isn't actually true, the guy she slept with never actually reviewed her game, even thought that misconception got spread around pretty early on, propelling the early part of GamerGate. By the time that the truth about that was being spread, several other issues came to the light that propelled GamerGate further, and this led to more stuff, and more stuff. If you want a not-terrible summary that isn't blatantly biased and covers many of the main points without getting too messy, go here: http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/events/gamergate
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: yaj on October 19, 2014, 10:23:09 PM
Okay, so since that was dis-proven, the main points of contention seem to be an alleged affair that Quinn had with a judge, censorship issues with 4chan, and death threats. And a bomb threat!  I'm not sure about the donations, because it's not clear in the article you linked to who the benefactor was, and if there was anything wrong with that. What I don't understand so far is why people on the GamerGate side aren't distancing themselves from the people who made threats against  Anita Sarkeesian. From reading this topic, they're saying the threats didn't happen. I would say "The threats happened, but it has nothing to do with our cause." There's a couple of bad apples in every group of people, but don't dismiss what they did.

Another part of this story that's fascinating is the subject of gamer culture, and whether video games are a form of art or entertainment. Then there's the way women are portrayed in video games. These came about from the youtube videos I think? But these subjects are too buried under all the mud slinging to have a discussion about them at this point. Kinda sad.

(Ah, I wasn't reading closely enough.  Ben Kuchera who wrote a positive review of her game made a donation. I guess people count on impartial reviews, for an unbiased opinion. It's understandable why somebody would be a little irked but I still can't wrap my mind around how this became such a big deal. Maybe the indie game scene is bigger than I thought it was.)
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Keith Stack on October 19, 2014, 11:38:24 PM
I think it got so big just because it's become a culture war us-vs-them thing that people get really defensive/offensive over. Are you some trust-fund hipster jerk who manipulates the industry and oppresses video games with excessive political correctness? Or are you a gross, shut-in, neckbearded, misogynistic gamer virgin who harasses women? Some people get really, really, really angry at the thought of one of these groups existing.

I don't think this is going to do the job and I put far more credence for industry change in things like magazines outright encouraging people not to buy Dead or Alive Xtreme 2 as the sad masturbation fodder that it is.

I don't know about you, but I am never sad when I masturbate to Dead or Alive Xtreme 2.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Sofox on October 20, 2014, 11:22:27 AM
On the topic of charity, GamerGate raised over $16,000 for a bulling prevention charity: https://www.crowdrise.com/GamerGateStompsOutBullying/fundraiser/

Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Zodberg on October 20, 2014, 04:00:15 PM
I'm not following this whole thing at all, because, well, it's tragic effect of people who were at home being homophobic and racist and everything on Xbox now having grown up to be terrible people in real life. I thought "Gamergate" referred to the scandal, but so apparently "Gamergate" actually now refers a group of people who sent death threats to women because she triggered a compromise of journalistic integrity? (in an industry where journalistic integrity was never substantial anyway?). So now they're in spotlight and acting nice and basically being Misanthropists for A Better World?
Is that actually what's happening?
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: James on October 20, 2014, 04:48:20 PM
No, that's idiotic media spinning courtesy of Brianna "I made a sockpuppet in an attempt to troll GG, and made a whole bunch of anti-GG posts and decided to delete them claiming I was HAXXORED" Wu.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: James on October 20, 2014, 05:05:01 PM
Autism charity. (https://www.crowdrise.com/GGfights4autism)
#GamerFruit hunger charity. (https://www.crowdrise.com/gamerfruit)
Suicide prevention charity. (https://www.crowdrise.com/nshgamers/fundraiser/loping)
And of course, the original The Fine Young Capitalists project (https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/the-fine-young-capitalists--2) with profit breakdown. (http://www.thefineyoungcapitalists.com/profitBreakDown)
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Sofox on October 20, 2014, 05:37:09 PM
Zodberg, let me state something. Remember the death threats that Anita received that made her cancel her lecture? Remember the one that's quoted the most and is most serious that talks about instigating a massacre at the lecture theatre? That threat made absolutely no mention of GamerGate, so did most of the threats she received, save for possibly one.

One website, Ars Technica did state this lack of clear connection between the threats and GamerGate, however the vast majority of news sources instantly connected the threats with the GamerGate movement, treated them as one and the same, and responded as such. Think about this for a second:

A horrific and illegal act is performed that attacks freedom of speech and causes more hardship for someone who's had a lot of it, and suddenly news writers immediately shove the blame large movement despite a total lack of evidence.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: James on October 20, 2014, 05:43:07 PM
And the threat that Anita received was proven to come from Something Awful, anyway.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: 0005 maS maS on October 20, 2014, 06:39:55 PM
I'm guessing Zod was probably referring to the Quinn debacle that started this whole thing.

The one thing I really, really have to ask is... if your social movement was originally incepted by some horrific bout of misogyny, why would you keep the same name for the supposedly "noble" plight instead of forming a whole new movement? Of course you're going to be met with skepticism and more, even if you're doing good things, when you're still associating with that initial event. If anything, it undermines any good done as it all seems like a defence - "no, we can't be horrible people because look at all this charity work we've done!". That's why threats against Anita will get lumped in with the same movement, even if unrelated - because the name is obviously synonymous with misogyny through the way it started. Everything about holding on to that name and trying to play the good guys is idiotic.

EDIT: i know how to grammar
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: James on October 20, 2014, 07:29:46 PM
Moving to another tag is pointless because 1) the same anti-GG shitheads are just going to follow if it does happen, and 2) introducing new tags for GG to "move to" is the anti-GG "divide and conquer" tactic. There is a reason that it has failed miserably in the... 5 attempts? 6? However many that have happened.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Sz on October 20, 2014, 07:53:32 PM
It's not pointless, the name is now associated with misogynists and prank callers and general troublemakers. You can cry foul about media coverage and who cares what else, but at this point anyone who associates with that hashtag is willfully ignoring the baggage that comes it. It literally does not matter at all if it's a fair label. It's now how this "movement", such as it is, is perceived.

I'll also say I think it's a bit irresponsible to stick with the toxic #GamersGate tag, given that it's become a platform to justify some pretty vile behavior. Abandon it and let it burn out.

Were I involved, I would rally the troops under a new banner, and be explicit (with actions rather than words) in support of female writers/developers in gaming. It's good PR. It makes sense even for the misogynists!
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Sz on October 20, 2014, 07:57:25 PM
Thats also the problem with any other banner mind. The feminist side also has its own share of the bad eggs, and so it all turns into what a war would look like if two toilets filled with turds from opposite dimensions began to phase-space into each other, one swirling one way, the other counter to it. A never ending cyclone of butt-spawn, smashing up against its equal and opposing force. Stare into it for too long yourself, and your face will be covered in the fallout. A shitspray of multidimensional origin, Ray.

I meant to comment on this earlier, but it's really a fantastic bit of prose.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Sofox on October 20, 2014, 07:59:51 PM
Why do you say that GamerGate was started by a bout of misogyny? It was coined by Adam Baldwin when linking to videos that were about demonstrating corruption in the gaming industry. A lot of GG supporters say GamerGate was already always about journalistic integrity, but because the gaming press didn't want to deal with the issues it was raising, it responded first by ignoring it, and then by slandering and attacking it as misogynistic, in order to discredit the movement.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: SuitCase on October 20, 2014, 08:19:23 PM
I’m not supporting Gamergate until they raise $100,000 for charity.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: James on October 20, 2014, 09:09:24 PM
Counting or not counting TFYC? Because, counting it, they're pretty damn close right now.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Zodberg on October 21, 2014, 02:53:33 AM
The one thing I really, really have to ask is... if your social movement was originally incepted by some horrific bout of misogyny, why would you keep the same name for the supposedly "noble" plight instead of forming a whole new movement?

Yes, you are a smart person.

Hey, so is there like an official listing of Gamergate members or is it more a vague hivemind who prefer to remain undefined to help the illusion of inclusiveness and mysteriousness?
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: 0005 maS maS on October 21, 2014, 04:13:37 AM
Why do you say that GamerGate was started by a bout of misogyny?
Maybe "started" is the wrong word, but at the very least, it became publicly known through the harassment of Zoe Quinn more than anything and to most people's eyes, that was its beginning.

On a related note, here is Charlie Brooker violently hitting all nails on their head: http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/oct/20/gamergate-internet-toughest-game-woman-enemies
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: yaj on October 21, 2014, 05:06:47 AM
oh, I wasn't aware something awful was responsible for the threats against Sarkeesian. or that they still existed. sorry bout that.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Zodberg on October 21, 2014, 05:58:08 AM
No amount of charity will ever persuade me that videogame journalism is more important than basic human respect. And blaming somethingawful for the threats is kind of... broken? since somethingawful is a messageboard and not a collective ideology.

J, what is your concise timeline of events. I feel that you're already agreeing with us just in the wrong direction. Let's come to terms, but still while being brief since really I'm only here to learn how I can better ignore gamersgate.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Sofox on October 21, 2014, 06:05:03 AM
Why do you say that GamerGate was started by a bout of misogyny?
Maybe "started" is the wrong word, but at the very least, it became publicly known through the harassment of Zoe Quinn more than anything and to most people's eyes, that was its beginning.

On a related note, here is Charlie Brooker violently hitting all nails on their head: http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/oct/20/gamergate-internet-toughest-game-woman-enemies

And how did it become known for harassing Zoe Quinn? Through the gaming press. The same press, who were close friends with Zoe and have an interest in portraying this movement as a hate mob because otherwise it requires accepting criticism.

Put it like this, everyone knew in the early days that Zoe Quinn was being harassed due to reading it on various game sites; but how many knew that Zoe Quinn had personally sabotaged a feminist campaign? Or that GamerGate stepped up to support the feminist campaign? Both sets of events happened around about the same time, both are valid news stories that deal with a prominent figure, social issues in games and online movements. One got widely reported on and promoted by gaming journalists, the other didn't.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Matt_TY on October 21, 2014, 06:15:16 AM
And unfortunately for both sides it's become more about controlling the narrative than controlling the actual problems at hand.
But it diesn't matter because it's dead and everything is over now, I know because TechCrunch says so.

Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: 0005 maS maS on October 21, 2014, 07:18:12 AM
And how did it become known for harassing Zoe Quinn? Through the gaming press. The same press, who were close friends with Zoe and have an interest in portraying this movement as a hate mob because otherwise it requires accepting criticism.

Put it like this, everyone knew in the early days that Zoe Quinn was being harassed due to reading it on various game sites; but how many knew that Zoe Quinn had personally sabotaged a feminist campaign? Or that GamerGate stepped up to support the feminist campaign? Both sets of events happened around about the same time, both are valid news stories that deal with a prominent figure, social issues in games and online movements. One got widely reported on and promoted by gaming journalists, the other didn't.

But, in all fairness, the harassment of Zoe Quinn was also an inaccurate attack on the gaming press as the entire thing was based around a false notion of good reviews being bought through sleeping with journos. Of course it was in the gaming press's interest to fight that claim - not for Zoe, but more for themselves. They were being criticised for something that didn't happen, all because some ex-boyf got his panties in a twist about a developer. How could GG expect even and measured coverage when a fair chunk of them were unjustifiably putting out their own lies and manipulations? That's why I think it's idiotic that there's been no attempt to rebrand from those who are not terrible people - as Sz said, it's irresponsible to hold on to something so poisoned.

I'm not saying gaming journalism doesn't have problems (although I do think the backlash against these perceived problems is far too worthy and over the top), but attempting to legitimately critique things doesn't justify indecent behaviour. I'm with Zod, basic human respect trumps the integrity of entertainment journalism.

...I've done a bad job of not getting sucked in to this topic.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Sofox on October 21, 2014, 07:28:30 AM
So do you think if GamerGate rebranded, that gaming media wouldn't do the same thing over again and constantly drop lines like "... was said by NewGamer, an organisation that spawned out of the hate movement GamerGate...."?

Keep in mind, GamerGate took a lot of time before people accepted its staying power and took notice of it. Any new brand would have go through a similar gauntlet, which would take time and energy, not to mention conflict with those who stick with the original label.

Sheesh, I made it sound like I'm against the idea; to be clear: I care about journalists not being hypocritical and and having checks against them along with alternative sources of information; I want to see less harassment and more discussion; I don't care what label these actions come under as long as the issues are addressed.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: James on October 21, 2014, 09:51:40 AM
Milo returns from break with another story. (http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-London/2014/10/21/Incredibly-GamerGate-is-winning-but-you-won-t-read-that-anywhere-in-the-terrified-liberal-media)
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: David The Lurker on October 21, 2014, 12:45:31 PM
THE TERRIFIED LIBERAL MEDIA
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Zodberg on October 21, 2014, 01:09:41 PM
Man, soon as I read "terrified liberal media" I noped out of there with the same enthusiasm I switched off Glenn Beck and eventually gave up on cable. It's just sensational exploitation of bipartisanship.

So if this didn't all start with threats to some game developers, what was the opening shot in this conflict? What was the trigger for the media's focus on how gamers can be terrible? I want the other side here.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Sofox on October 21, 2014, 01:12:36 PM
So GamerGate has brought more attention to gaming journalist mapractice.

A ;bit ago, a writer at Destructoid got into some controversy though an article he wrote that he had permission to run. What happened next has a bunch of details (http://blogjob.com/oneangrygamer/2014/10/gamergate-destructoid-corruption-and-ruined-careers/) but the key part was that his boss, Niero, went on that GameJournoPros mailing list and asked for advice on whether to fire the writer.... yeah, he basically talked to a huge group of game writer employers about how bad a writer was. Apparently it's actually illegal to do this. Anyway in the days since this broke, Dale North, Destructoid's Editor-in-Chief (who's comments you can see in that linked article), has left Destructoid.

In another instance, Sam Biddle, writer at Vallywag, made some tweets such as "bring back bullying" and saying they should shame nerds to stop them. It was claimed to be a joke, and Gawker editor-in-chief Max Read backed Biddle under this basis, but I think we all know how tricky "jokes" could be, and especially during Bullying Awareness month. Anyway, lots of negative feedback, the anti-bullying fund-raiser that I linked above was started, Biddle did apologise, and BMW pulled advertising from Gawker on the basis of not condoning bullying.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: James on October 21, 2014, 03:23:56 PM
Actually, it was both BMW and Mercedes-Benz.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Sofox on October 21, 2014, 05:19:42 PM
And Adobe... though apparently they're not currently advertising on Gawker, still they weren't happy and actually sponsor and anti-bullying project, who knew? http://www.thebullyprojectmural.com/index.html
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: James on October 22, 2014, 10:08:18 AM
And ANOTHER charity project started today. (https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/from-gamergate-to-unicef)
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Sofox on October 22, 2014, 06:14:14 PM
Thanks for linking James.

Anyway, Gawker did another... I don't want to say "anti-GamerGate" but it was clearly intending to criticize the movement without providing a counterpoint. https://archive.today/XUQAP#selection-5023.36-5023.217 . I glanced through it. Anyway, out of nowhere they suddenly bring Sonic the Hedgehog into the fray. I mean, what did he ever have to do with anything? Apparently "The swarms of angry Sonic the Hedgehog fans who make up Gamergate's diehard center"... o..kay? I.... what? What is this?
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: James on October 22, 2014, 06:44:48 PM
It's hilarious because, according to what jenny told me and what I've experienced, a MAJORITY of the Sonic fandom HATES GG.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Matt_TY on October 22, 2014, 07:10:50 PM
It appears from a brief Google search that someone got into the Gamergate subreddit yesterday and replaced all links with links to Sonic/My Little Pony crossover romance fanart.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Sofox on October 22, 2014, 07:27:49 PM
So a fact in the article is based off a troll/joke someone did one time? I have to say, I don't think I've seen a higher standard of research.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: David The Lurker on October 23, 2014, 02:24:33 PM
It's hilarious because, according to what jenny told me and what I've experienced, a MAJORITY of the Sonic fandom HATES GG.

maybe because sonic fans deal with enough drama lolololol
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: James on October 24, 2014, 10:40:17 PM
Today, the GG Extra Life charity event started. So far, around $1600 has been raised by it. They're hoping to get more.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Keith Stack on October 25, 2014, 04:25:17 PM
http://www.clickhole.com/article/summary-gamergate-movement-we-will-immediately-cha-1241
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: James on October 25, 2014, 09:48:04 PM
I hope you're aware of the satire.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: James on October 26, 2014, 11:23:16 AM
TotalBiscuit writes a huge blog regarding his stance. (http://blueplz.blogspot.com.au/2014/10/whose-side-am-i-on.html?m=1)
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Zodberg on October 29, 2014, 06:50:53 AM
Sum is up for me since I do not care enough about CompletelyPastry to click that link. (http://butts)

Gamergate is a lot like Occupy Wallstreet. Well meaning but terribly obstructive boring people who will go home when it gets cold.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: James on October 29, 2014, 09:17:45 AM
Silly Neroman, the internet has no temperature.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Sofox on October 29, 2014, 11:21:12 AM
C'mon Nero, are you at least going to make an effort?
Alright, lesse: TotalBiscuit basically was talking about being on a live stream with people of questionable character, he said being on the stream with these poeple wasn't an endorsement of them, he was with them because they were the only ones who were willing to talk to him about GamerGate. TotalBiscuit had tried to contact more mainstream gaming media to talk with them about GamerGate, but they didn't reply. He goes on about the media portraying a one sided narrative of GamerGate, how of course he doesn't support some of the stuff on the GamerGate side, and does a great summary of the game media problems that GamerGate tries to bring attention to:

Quote
Games media have an opportunity to end this. They have since the very start, by talking about their own ethical concerns. While Kotaku has taken strides to improve its ethical policies, I call on them to acknowledge the appearance of impropriety when Nathan Grayson wrote about someone who he had a friendly and then shortly after, romantic relationship with. I call on them to acknowledge that Patricia Hernandez writing positive articles about people she lived with is a conflict of interest and should be apologised for. I call on Polygon to acknowledge the very real appearance of impropriety when Danielle gave a perfect 10 to a game whose sound designer she has been friends with for several years. I call on Destructoid to apologise for its lack of proper disclosure when dealing with Borderlands 2 and their past relationship with ex-staffer Anthony Burch, which it retroactively disclaimed after it was found out. I call on games journalists to have a serious discussion about whether or not "funding the lives" of developers via Patreon would be grounds enough for recusal or whether indeed you should be doing it to begin with. Kotaku by the way, now believes they should not and good on them for that. I also call on Youtubers to fully accept their responsibility to their audience and abide by FTC regulations calling for clear, unavoidable disclosure on advertorial content. I call on everyone to have a real discussion about Metacritic and the obtuse and outdated practice of scoring games and how the site could potentially be harming our growth as an industry. I call for a real investigation into the blacklisting of Allistair Pinsof. I call for games critics, when presented with the critiques of Anita Sarkeesian to instead of promoting them without comment, take a look and provide counter-arguments where applicable. I call on those that wrote articles regarding the "death of gamers" and used incendiary language while doing so to acknowledge the possibility that they harmed others by doing so, real, vulnerable individuals whose identities are closely tied to this medium. I call on games media to firmly reject pro-bullying stances, rather than excusing them as "just jokes". I call on games media and prominent personalities in this industry to use social media and their large followings more responsibly, rather than as means to dogpile people they believe to be "in the wrong" and yes, I firmly accept responsibility for doing so in the past and apologise to everyone affected by it, I am no angel. I call for games media to criticise other elements of games media, rather than hanging around in Google Groups. You are supposed to be in competition and competition breeds excellence. All I see is a group of people who are altogether too damn chummy. I call for Gamespot to discuss whether or not it believes it is appropriate to send its personalities to MC at promotional events for Blizzard games. I call for an industry-wide investigation into the apparently disturbing number of games media personalities who are involved in romantic relationships with staff at games PR firms. This and so, so much more.

He finishes up by saying "Thank you for reading and know that the only "side" I am on is that of making this industry better for everyone."
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Sofox on October 29, 2014, 04:01:29 PM
Whoa, this is interesting. A guy who's anti-GamerGate and wants the movement to end writes an article about ending it that I actually find reasonable http://www.slate.com/articles/technology/bitwise/2014/10/how_to_end_gamergate_a_divide_and_conquer_plan.html?wpsrc=sh_all_dt_tw_top

Shows how far you can go by research and applying your brain, even when dealing with a viewpoint you disagree with.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: David The Lurker on October 29, 2014, 04:04:39 PM
So over the weekend I heard people talking about this on the Radio. On NPR.

oh

p.s. wouldn't it be better if the phrase "social justice warrior" was never used anywhere ever
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: James on October 29, 2014, 06:17:26 PM
It would be. It truly would be.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Keith Stack on October 29, 2014, 10:39:22 PM
James, what would need to happen for you to stop tweeting about Gamer Gate? Like, what is your vision of an ideal world that is not in need of Gamer Gating every day?
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Keith Stack on October 29, 2014, 10:56:46 PM
Have you guys ever noticed that men like to look at scantily-clad women more than women like to look at scantily-clad men? That's probably why Playboy sells a lot more than Playgirl does.

That's also probably why video games feature more scantily-clad women than scantily-clad men.

I think the only way to achieve true equality here is a mass-convincing of women that the male body is smokin' hot. Only then will the ratio of sexy men/women bodies in video games, and media in general, naturally balance itself out. Where's that photo of me in the Sonic underwear?
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Zodberg on October 30, 2014, 02:41:36 AM
Where's that photo of Sonic in some Keith Stack underwear?

When I get a free week, I was planning on doing an article on Grapple Force Rena, and Matrixx is a cool guy so I was going to say how good the game was since it's pretty great. But Gamergate convinced me that before I should do this, I should learn to hate Matrixx as much as possible.

Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: yaj on October 30, 2014, 08:24:58 AM
that only kind of men worth looking at in their underwear are the ones who kind of look like chicks without any body hair. that rules me out. uh..on a more serious note.





I think the only way to achieve true equality here is a mass-convincing of women that the male body is smokin' hot. Only then will the ratio of sexy men/women bodies in video games, and media in general, naturally balance itself out. Where's that photo of me in the Sonic underwear?

that photo was damn sexy. (http://i.imgur.com/Dzp1FpA.jpg)
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: David The Lurker on October 30, 2014, 01:15:12 PM
that photo was damn sexy. (http://i.imgur.com/Dzp1FpA.jpg)

Why isn't that photo tattooed on my body right now
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Sofox on November 13, 2014, 11:27:56 AM
Wow, so some interesting developments over at Wikipedia. There was some kerfufle behind the scenes at at some point David Auerbach (writer of that "How to end GamerGate") exposed a Wikipedia editor for being prejudice and contacted Jimmy Wales (the main guy of Wikipedia) over it (by the way, apparently writing an article about ending GamerGate somehow got people viewing him as pro-GamerGate). Things seemed to be sorted out a bit, then Jimmy Wales called for pro-GG supporters (https://twitter.com/jimmy_wales/status/532624325694992385) to try to propose their own view of an appropriate Wikipedia article here (http://gamergate.wikia.com/wiki/Proposed_Wikipedia_Entry).

Now it's a wiki page, so it's likely to change, but right now it is a decent article with a lot of details like bit about journalistic misconduct, as well as detailing the harrassment, so if you wanna get up to speed on the issue again, have a look: http://gamergate.wikia.com/wiki/Proposed_Wikipedia_Entry
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: James on November 22, 2014, 10:53:18 AM
Today's news: the IGDA is making an industry blacklist.

Said blacklist has been coded so shittily that it labels anyone that just happens to follow anyone that's spoken out pro-GG as an abuser.

This includes KFC. Y'know, the actual official KFC account.

CHICKEN CONFIRMED FOR MISOGYNY
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Archaemic on November 23, 2014, 12:15:37 AM
Today's news: James hasn't done his research. It's one person, that same person I linked to early, Randi Harper. Who is not affiliated with the IGDA. It's a twitter blocklist, not an industry blacklist. All it's for is blocking people on Twitter. So that you don't get harassed by an army when you mention something about GamerGate. All IGDA did was link to it as a way to avoid getting harassed. They have since removed the link, anyway.

Also that's not shitty coding, that's its only heuristic. If you follow a bunch of toolbags, chances are you might be too. There is a whitelist associated with the blacklist so you can make an appeal. I don't quite know the appeal process, but the whitelist is certainly not empty.

Also, this raises the question: why is the KFC account following a bunch of toolbags? Actually, why is it following over 43 thousand accounts, anyway? I guess it got a bit caught in the backlash. But if they care, they can almost certainly get whitelisted. If they care.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Keith Stack on November 23, 2014, 02:23:41 AM
Today's news: 37 homes collapse, dozens injured in Japan quake

Are video game journalists ethical yet?
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Sofox on November 23, 2014, 10:37:01 AM
Arch, do you actually know any of the 6 people that the heuristic useses to determine if following is a big deal? One of them is a British journalist who got interested in GamerGate because there was a story. You can't just call random people on the internet Toolbags.

There are multiple problems with the blocklist. It assumes guilt by association, it assumes following someone on Twitter is an endorsement of their actions, it assumes that someone that's a member/proponent of GamerGate is by definition a harasser, it could lead to numerous people getting blocked for no reason. Here's the biggest problem: It blocks people as being harrasser without actually checking whether they've ever harassed anyone. On top of this, it makes IGDA take a political position on the issue, since the the list is based on supporting GamerGate rather than any actual action.

Saying whitelisting is a solution to this is a "guilty until proven innocent". How would someone even know they're on the blocklist unless they first know it exists, then manually searchit themselves?

Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: James on November 23, 2014, 12:53:22 PM
Oni Lukos, what are you doing here? I thought you were taking your own advice and leaving, given how you have nothing to add and won't listen to anything that doesn't agree with your views explicitly.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: James on November 29, 2014, 08:27:27 PM
Been a while, but got a couple things to bring up.

First, the FTC has confirmed that they are releasing a revised, stricter code of ethics to apply to all forms of journalism, online and off.

Second, GG funded support of sea lions. (http://wwf.worldwildlife.org/site/TR/PandaNation/Panda-Nation?team_id=53922&pg=team&fr_id=1182)
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Zodberg on November 30, 2014, 03:06:59 AM
When I get a free week, I was planning on doing an article on Grapple Force Rena, and Matrixx is a cool guy so I was going to say how good the game was since it's pretty great. But Gamergate convinced me that before I should do this, I should learn to hate Matrixx as much as possible.

http://thisweekingeek.net/interviews/grapple-force
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: James on November 30, 2014, 12:52:43 PM
pay-tp-play
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Archaemic on November 30, 2014, 06:08:49 PM
Oni Lukos, what are you doing here? I thought you were taking your own advice and leaving, given how you have nothing to add and won't listen to anything that doesn't agree with your views explicitly.
Why are you calling me by a name I haven't used in 8 years? Are you trying to denigrate me weakly? Also, calling me trying to call out the blatant lies and kool-aid drinking qualifies as nothing to add? Alright, I guess you can continue to put your hands over your ears and drown out the people calling you on bullshit. I guess you're really the one who has nothing to add other than vomiting up the kool-aid.

Try some critical thinking sometime. I left because you were pissing me off so much due to your lack of useful rhetoric and only shit-poor rhetoric in its place. TRY FOR ONCE. You aren't even COUNTERING MY POINTS, you are IGNORING THEM ENTIRELY and trying to push me out so I don't continue to call you on shit. This is not conversations work.

Arch, do you actually know any of the 6 people that the heuristic useses to determine if following is a big deal? One of them is a British journalist who got interested in GamerGate because there was a story. You can't just call random people on the internet Toolbags.

I'm not sure if you're talking about Milo (I don't know his last name), but he's kind of a sensationalist asshole who is only writing to cash in on the story and at one point even said that they were taking things too far. He works for Breitbart, ffs. The controversies section on the wikipedia article about that site is significantly larger than the rest of the article...that's not a good sign.

There are multiple problems with the blocklist. It assumes guilt by association, it assumes following someone on Twitter is an endorsement of their actions, it assumes that someone that's a member/proponent of GamerGate is by definition a harasser, it could lead to numerous people getting blocked for no reason. Here's the biggest problem: It blocks people as being harrasser without actually checking whether they've ever harassed anyone. On top of this, it makes IGDA take a political position on the issue, since the the list is based on supporting GamerGate rather than any actual action.

Saying whitelisting is a solution to this is a "guilty until proven innocent". How would someone even know they're on the blocklist unless they first know it exists, then manually searchit themselves?

Yeah, you're actually right, in some regards. The blacklist isn't a really good solution for, you know, saying if someone is actually a harasser. It's only useful for trying to block people who are the most likely to harass you, but it also blocks people you'd probably never interact with anyway. It casts too wide a net, but for most people the negative effects are negligible. Trying to glean any useful information about who is on the list is bad, given how rife it is with false positives. The fact that people are trying to do that...yeah, it shows that people aren't understanding that the list it only for trying to block people from harassing you before it occurs. It's gone too far.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: James on November 30, 2014, 09:24:09 PM
"vomiting up the kool-aid"

Says the guy who claimed that the creator of the blacklist was SUCH A VICTIM, when in reality she's a nasty piece of work who decided to bully people who tried appealing to get off of the list & even started doxxing people that formally submitted such requests, and even went so far as to personally bully Claire Schumann off of Twitter just for trying to be neutral. How's THAT Kool-Aid coming up for you?

So yeah, that thing about the list being only for "trying to block people from harassing you before it occurs"? Could've fucking fooled me.

Seriously, could've fucking fooled me. (https://archive.today/dY4WZ)
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Archaemic on November 30, 2014, 11:47:42 PM
"vomiting up the kool-aid"

Says the guy who claimed that the creator of the blacklist was SUCH A VICTIM, when in reality she's a nasty piece of work who decided to bully people who tried appealing to get off of the list & even started doxxing people that formally submitted such requests, and even went so far as to personally bully Claire Schumann off of Twitter just for trying to be neutral. How's THAT Kool-Aid coming up for you?

I recently unfollowed her due to how vitriolic she's gotten. She lacks a lot of awareness as to the effect she's having, and while she's definitely been bullied, that doesn't seem to stop her from throwing it out a lot too. She seems to be mostly blind to her bullying others, though, thinking that it's always just, when I've definitely seen cases where it's just pouring fuel on the fire.

Also um, does anyone actually have proof that the one person she bullied off that everyone points to wasn't a sockpuppet? She's really insistent that it's a sockpuppet, and claims to have proof, but I'm not actually sure one way or the other.

So yeah, that thing about the list being only for "trying to block people from harassing you before it occurs"? Could've fucking fooled me.

Seriously, could've fucking fooled me. (https://archive.today/dY4WZ)

I re-read this like 5 times trying to figure out what you were trying to make a point of. It pretty much explicitly says what I said, and I'm not sure what part you're trying to highlight that would contradict me.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Zodberg on December 01, 2014, 04:00:15 AM
nobody cares about gamergate anymore you guys
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Archaemic on December 01, 2014, 05:39:56 AM
I wish.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: James on December 01, 2014, 07:57:26 AM
Quote
In this particular case, the tool was written for use in filtering out the majority of GamerGate supporters.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: yaj on December 01, 2014, 09:22:45 AM
nobody cares about gamergate anymore you guys

the thought came to me last night "if i wasn't working right now, i could dedicate more time to understanding what this gamergate thing is about."

And kind of off topic, but I have a feeling Andrew Breitbart would not have allowed a story like this on his website if he were alive.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Matt_TY on December 01, 2014, 03:16:49 PM
There are multiple problems with the blocklist. It assumes guilt by association, it assumes following someone on Twitter is an endorsement of their actions, it assumes that someone that's a member/proponent of GamerGate is by definition a harasser, it could lead to numerous people getting blocked for no reason. Here's the biggest problem: It blocks people as being harrasser without actually checking whether they've ever harassed anyone. On top of this, it makes IGDA take a political position on the issue, since the the list is based on supporting GamerGate rather than any actual action.

Saying whitelisting is a solution to this is a "guilty until proven innocent". How would someone even know they're on the blocklist unless they first know it exists, then manually searchit themselves?

Yeah, you're actually right, in some regards. The blacklist isn't a really good solution for, you know, saying if someone is actually a harasser. It's only useful for trying to block people who are the most likely to harass you, but it also blocks people you'd probably never interact with anyway. It casts too wide a net, but for most people the negative effects are negligible. Trying to glean any useful information about who is on the list is bad, given how rife it is with false positives. The fact that people are trying to do that...yeah, it shows that people aren't understanding that the list it only for trying to block people from harassing you before it occurs. It's gone too far.

I suppose my problem with the IGDA's use of this list is that, from what I understand, they were spruiking it as a list of "the worst harassers" which is a trifle unfair for the "false positives" caught on it. There appears to have been no research done on the IGDA's part that might otherwise have warned them away from such an unequivocal description of it.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Archaemic on December 01, 2014, 09:28:57 PM
I suppose my problem with the IGDA's use of this list is that, from what I understand, they were spruiking it as a list of "the worst harassers" which is a trifle unfair for the "false positives" caught on it. There appears to have been no research done on the IGDA's part that might otherwise have warned them away from such an unequivocal description of it.
You're absolutely right. This list is a far cry from "the worst offenders". I heard they removed the link shortly after it was put up, though.

Quote
In this particular case, the tool was written for use in filtering out the majority of GamerGate supporters.
Turns out, at this point, most of the people who describe themselves as "pro-GG" are the vitriolic people who tend to not care as much about ethics in journalism and are really just trying to save face and deflect criticism. What percentage of your posts in this topic have been "wow look at this shit that journalists have been doing that's corrupt!" vs "waaaah they're criticizing how we're reacting!"?

Anyone who does in fact care about ethics in game journalism should realize by now that the name GamerGate is toxic to the cause and should really be moved away from.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Sofox on December 01, 2014, 09:37:12 PM
Anyone who does in fact care about ethics in game journalism should realize by now that the name GamerGate is toxic to the cause and should really be moved away from.

Then what do you suggest should be done? Give up? Adopt a new name?
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: James on December 01, 2014, 09:53:07 PM
Someone here doesn't wanna do research. Again, I bring up how the FTC are releasing a new code of ethics for journalism to adhere to that will be officially released next year. (http://www.reddit.com/r/KotakuInAction/comments/2nz204/important_ftc_update_4_ftc_confirms_that_yes/)

If you don't wanna actually provide examples of what you're talking about as proof, then by all means continue to not make a difference.

I'm just gonna continue to watch the news unfold and laugh at anti-GGs footbulleting themselves.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: James on December 01, 2014, 10:50:09 PM
P.S.: If you actually have proof, take it to "#GamerGate Harrassment Patrol", which I'm definitely sure you never heard of or else you wouldn't continue going on about what it isn't. Investigation (and reporting if need be) will be done.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Archaemic on December 01, 2014, 11:48:20 PM
Anyone who does in fact care about ethics in game journalism should realize by now that the name GamerGate is toxic to the cause and should really be moved away from.

Then what do you suggest should be done? Give up? Adopt a new name?

Move away from the name, definitely. Maybe try not to be so vocal to people who tend to have the pile on and harassment mentality, I guess? It's a tough question, but what's being done right now is toxic in a number of ways, and can definitely be done better. I know that it's usually the vocal minority that gives a whole movement a bad name, but it seems exceedingly rare that I've interacted with anyone who just has good will in mind. KiA is really jarring in this regard, and 8chan is, of course the death of good will, being distilled awful. Given the movement was born out of bad will, well, that seems to be indicative of a problem in the first place. You seem to be one of the few people I've interacted with that actually seems to have good will in mind. James, on the other hand...

Someone here doesn't wanna do research. Again, I bring up how the FTC are releasing a new code of ethics for journalism to adhere to that will be officially released next year. (http://www.reddit.com/r/KotakuInAction/comments/2nz204/important_ftc_update_4_ftc_confirms_that_yes/)

Oh wow, a potentially good change to come out of the endless sea of acid! Impressive. I'm amazed that such a community could do even one thing right.

If you don't wanna actually provide examples of what you're talking about as proof, then by all means continue to not make a difference.

I'm just gonna continue to watch the news unfold and laugh at anti-GGs footbulleting themselves.

What you've just described yourself doing is schadenfreude, not action, but you've chided me for my lack of making a difference. Good job. Pat yourself on the back some more, you deserve it.

P.S.: If you actually have proof, take it to "#GamerGate Harrassment Patrol", which I'm definitely sure you never heard of or else you wouldn't continue going on about what it isn't. Investigation (and reporting if need be) will be done.

Yep, I've heard of them. I've also heard about their hypocrisy. Though please excuse me, I haven't actually saved any of the links about how shitty of a job they've done, because I don't actually care enough to try to change your mind about anything--since it's pretty clear that I'm actually talking to a brick wall and not someone reasonable.

I really should be ignoring this debacle but it's like a scab. I can't stop picking at it, even though I know it's bad for me
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: James on December 02, 2014, 12:53:32 AM
Quote
it's pretty clear that I'm actually talking to a brick wall and not someone reasonable.
Gee, took the words right outta my mouth for once, fucky.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Archaemic on December 02, 2014, 04:25:04 AM
haha, you're still calling me fucky.

(Your "I don't want to argue with this, so rubber/glue, etc" posts are pretty funny, I have to admit.)
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Matt_TY on December 02, 2014, 05:34:46 AM
ITT reasonable discussion of two very real and very unrelated issues.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Sofox on December 02, 2014, 07:04:52 AM
James, I know you're getting annoyed at Arch, and I understand it's getting frustrating. But notice when you clearly state your point (like the FTC thing, or my arguments about the IGDA supporting a blocklist being bad), Arch does somewhat accept some of the points, but when casual insults are thrown, he naturally gets flippant and is more likely to throw the insult back? This is an important lesson if you're getting anyone to understand your point of view. "Venting" on the other person or getting aggressive pretty much only ever hurts your cause, wheras while they may not ever agree with everything you have to say, if you put your points forward reasonably, they may at least appreciate your point of view.

Also, people have the habit of judging a movement by the people they meet who are part of the movement, if you're aggressive, Arch will assume that GamerGate is aggressive itself.

Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: James on December 02, 2014, 11:14:47 AM
His mind's already long since been made up. He can't look into a mirror and figure out how hypocritical what he's saying really is.

You tell me, at what point in ANY of the times he's been here, has he been convinced that he's wrong. Seriously, tell me.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Spazz on December 02, 2014, 09:00:46 PM
y'all get out of my cartoons

(http://i.imgur.com/oUzumHtl.jpg)
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Vexiss on December 02, 2014, 11:09:39 PM
oh my

is that real

or did subtitles fuck up like they love to do
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Spazz on December 02, 2014, 11:42:12 PM
here listen (https://docs.google.com/file/d/0BwiVVOBJJkOzNGlEUW9wQ2xLd0k/preview)
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: James on December 02, 2014, 11:52:46 PM
A gamergate is an actual part of ant anatomy, from what I understand.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Zodberg on December 03, 2014, 04:39:12 AM
The cartoon was written prior to stupid gamers embarrassing themselves in real life over nothing important.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Sofox on December 03, 2014, 09:17:28 AM
Oh boy, Target Australia just pulled GTA V from shelves because of "violence against women"
http://www.target.com.au/medias/marketing/corporate/PDF/media-release/GTA-Media-Release-v2.pdf

I find this actually shocking. First because anyone who's played the game through knows that the most brutal and horrific depiction of violence in the game happens to a man, the game is definitely male centric, but the target of pretty much all the violence in the game is towards men. But really I'm shocked that now a game's officially been pulled from shelves over controversy, I can't even remember Jack Thompson accomplishing that much (though correct me if I'm wrong), the worst was the Hot Coffee scandal.

Look, I'm genuinely getting worried about this now. This has crossed a major line and I'm not sure where the next step is. Are we literally going to have stores that determine their own systems for determining whether they sell a game or not? Will developers have to abide by these rules in order to reach the widest possible market?
Actually, it's worse than that, GTA V wasn't even banned due to a specific problem or specific violation. The worst is that game developers don't know what random twist of opinion is going to get their games banned from a series of stores, unable to sell enough games to make up for development costs. What sort of environment is that for a creative industry to operate in?
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: James on December 03, 2014, 10:56:41 AM
Well, it's Australia, so it was already gonna be screwed. They're notoriously draconic when it comes to games getting released in the continent.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Mirai on December 03, 2014, 02:09:31 PM
Oh boy, Target Australia just pulled GTA V from shelves because of "violence against women"
http://www.target.com.au/medias/marketing/corporate/PDF/media-release/GTA-Media-Release-v2.pdf

I find this actually shocking. First because anyone who's played the game through knows that the most brutal and horrific depiction of violence in the game happens to a man, the game is definitely male centric, but the target of pretty much all the violence in the game is towards men. But really I'm shocked that now a game's officially been pulled from shelves over controversy, I can't even remember Jack Thompson accomplishing that much (though correct me if I'm wrong), the worst was the Hot Coffee scandal.

Look, I'm genuinely getting worried about this now. This has crossed a major line and I'm not sure where the next step is. Are we literally going to have stores that determine their own systems for determining whether they sell a game or not? Will developers have to abide by these rules in order to reach the widest possible market?
Actually, it's worse than that, GTA V wasn't even banned due to a specific problem or specific violation. The worst is that game developers don't know what random twist of opinion is going to get their games banned from a series of stores, unable to sell enough games to make up for development costs. What sort of environment is that for a creative industry to operate in?

I suspect that as long as the majority of markets are still free, the developers will still create games as they see fit.  If anything, other businesses will pick up the profits the prohibitionists choose not to take.  Fortunately, it's just a private business making the call rather than the government making a morality dictate, so at least there is still access to the game.

I did a lot of reading on what was going on here in the States in the late 80s, 90s, and early 2000s with the various attempts to limit/ban sales of "obscene" media from Tipper Gore, Joe Lieberman, later Hillary Clinton, and similar ilk, and while Nintendo decided to clamp down on content with the SNES, there weren't any public dictates blocking access.  Whatever one's takeaway from Gamergate is, judging by the outcry over that and just how massive the gaming industry has become, the collective fury over a widespread morality ban would be spectacular. (Probably.)
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Matt_TY on December 03, 2014, 03:26:06 PM
Well, it's Australia, so it was already gonna be screwed. They're notoriously draconic when it comes to games getting released in the continent.

Actually, we've got a bit better at this recently and finally installed an adults-only rating for games. Here's the thing: this isn't because of that. Our classifications board had approved GTA V for sale. It's on shelves everywhere else. It's only Target that pulled it, apparently in response to a 40,000+ signature petition on Change.org rather than this whole Twitter... thing. Damned if I know why they singled out Target in particular, but... there it is.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Matt_TY on December 03, 2014, 03:28:25 PM
Oh boy, Target Australia just pulled GTA V from shelves because of "violence against women"
http://www.target.com.au/medias/marketing/corporate/PDF/media-release/GTA-Media-Release-v2.pdf

I find this actually shocking. First because anyone who's played the game through knows that the most brutal and horrific depiction of violence in the game happens to a man, the game is definitely male centric, but the target of pretty much all the violence in the game is towards men. But really I'm shocked that now a game's officially been pulled from shelves over controversy, I can't even remember Jack Thompson accomplishing that much (though correct me if I'm wrong), the worst was the Hot Coffee scandal.

Look, I'm genuinely getting worried about this now. This has crossed a major line and I'm not sure where the next step is. Are we literally going to have stores that determine their own systems for determining whether they sell a game or not? Will developers have to abide by these rules in order to reach the widest possible market?
Actually, it's worse than that, GTA V wasn't even banned due to a specific problem or specific violation. The worst is that game developers don't know what random twist of opinion is going to get their games banned from a series of stores, unable to sell enough games to make up for development costs. What sort of environment is that for a creative industry to operate in?

I suspect that as long as the majority of markets are still free, the developers will still create games as they see fit.  If anything, other businesses will pick up the profits the prohibitionists choose not to take.  Fortunately, it's just a private business making the call rather than the government making a morality dictate, so at least there is still access to the game.

I did a lot of reading on what was going on here in the States in the late 80s, 90s, and early 2000s with the various attempts to limit/ban sales of "obscene" media from Tipper Gore, Joe Lieberman, later Hillary Clinton, and similar ilk, and while Nintendo decided to clamp down on content with the SNES, there weren't any public dictates blocking access.  Whatever one's takeaway from Gamergate is, judging by the outcry over that and just how massive the gaming industry has become, the collective fury over a widespread morality ban would be spectacular. (Probably.)


Not just America. Mary Whitehouse was notorious for this sort of thing in Britain, too. And here in Australia our R18 rating for games was held back for years by a rogue State Attorney-General and a small but vocal hardline Christian lobby.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Sofox on December 03, 2014, 07:27:01 PM
I wanna make a game where Mary Whitehouse comes back from the dead as a zombie, and you have to campaign for all the censorship that was lost over the last few decades. It would be awesome.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Mirai on December 03, 2014, 08:49:41 PM
Not just America. Mary Whitehouse was notorious for this sort of thing in Britain, too. And here in Australia our R18 rating for games was held back for years by a rogue State Attorney-General and a small but vocal hardline Christian lobby.

Oh, I'm well aware that the U.S. hasn't been alone in suffering the wrath of prohibitionist weenies.  I've heard about much of the crap you've had to suffer down in Australia over the last few years, and Monty Python was lampooning it in Britain back in the 60s.  It's just the most accessible history having personally grown up through it.  It's also a useful case when driving home the point that dealing with prohibitionists trying to dictate/punish personal behavior and create political scapegoats isn't as simple a problem as "Left vs. Right" and/or "Party X = Good and Party Y = Bad."

After all, when a dick likes to dictate correct and incorrect-minded media, there's many other things he/she is happy to dictate.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Keith Stack on December 03, 2014, 08:50:39 PM
Well Australia has a history of banning video games. And energy drinks. And censoring children's cartoons. I wouldn't freak out over this.

I hope the new Smash Bros. doesn't get banned though. You can commit more violence against women than ever in that game!
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Sofox on December 04, 2014, 10:28:06 AM
That's Mirai, I guess I was loosing a bit of perspective over this.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: yaj on December 04, 2014, 03:24:46 PM
Whoa, Mirai brought it all back. I had to google that hot coffee thing at the time..to understand.

GTA sure is an awful series. Flying on a rocket pack in the first one was fun though. 

then they lost their way.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: James on December 04, 2014, 03:32:29 PM
You mean the third one. First 2 were top-down on PS1.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Matt_TY on December 04, 2014, 03:37:11 PM
Well Australia has a history of banning video games. And energy drinks. And censoring children's cartoons. I wouldn't freak out over this.

I hope the new Smash Bros. doesn't get banned though. You can commit more violence against women than ever in that game!

Mate, this is freak-out-worthy. To reiterate, the game is not banned here. Government and censorship by it have literally nothing to do with this. This is Target and now Kmart responding to a scary petition signed by uninformed people based on a faulty premise.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: yaj on December 04, 2014, 03:38:55 PM
oh, i was mistaken. just saw a video of it, and made an assumption it was 1.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Keith Stack on December 04, 2014, 09:12:49 PM
Mate, this is freak-out-worthy. To reiterate, the game is not banned here. Government and censorship by it have literally nothing to do with this. This is Target and now Kmart responding to a scary petition signed by uninformed people based on a faulty premise.

A business deciding not to sell a product (even if for a stupid reason) seems even less freak-out-worthy than government banning/censorship of it.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: James on December 04, 2014, 10:37:28 PM
Interview with AAA developer Christian Allen. (http://nichegamer.net/2014/12/gamergate-interview-christian-allen-edition/)
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: James on January 11, 2015, 08:15:10 PM
Article written by a female pro-GG regarding what it's about. (https://archive.today/2OJ0G)

(archive because Buzzfeed decided to delete it)
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Zodberg on January 11, 2015, 11:19:56 PM
You have not given me a persuasive reason to click your links.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: James on January 12, 2015, 12:35:45 AM
Not everything can be about sex or toys or sex toys, Neroman.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Zodberg on January 12, 2015, 09:31:08 AM
Shows what you know.

And I mean yes the catch phrase is "It's about ethics in game journalism" but it's not like the initial unifying act of gamergate was an anonymous act of mass-misogyny. So there's that. But seriously dude it's 2015, thread over and there's more important subjects than how legitimate reviews are.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: James on January 12, 2015, 09:51:12 AM
Tell that to Twitter.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: AnKylo on January 12, 2015, 12:06:33 PM
Can I make it about the treatment of sex toys in video games? I think my dildo sword was being oppressed when I was slapping people with it as the Pimp Knight in Saints Row 3.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: James on January 12, 2015, 01:10:47 PM
I think that's been done already.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Sofox on January 12, 2015, 02:54:10 PM
Zodberg, I accept your decision not to read the articles James linked, but deliberately not reading them and still expounding your opinion on GamerGate... it's like you're promoting ignorance as a platform for argument.

Anyway, recently IGN updated and fully published their disclosures and Code of Ethics, so some of the goals of GamerGate are being met, even in 2015.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: James on January 12, 2015, 03:40:45 PM
Also Randi got fired.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: James on January 13, 2015, 08:09:40 PM
And n
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Zodberg on January 14, 2015, 06:01:04 AM
ow we can all move on and hope that never again will progress come by people embarrassing themselves more than the people they're opposing.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Matt_TY on January 14, 2015, 07:51:11 AM
Shows what you know.

And I mean yes the catch phrase is "It's about ethics in game journalism" but it's not like the initial unifying act of gamergate was an anonymous act of mass-misogyny. So there's that. But seriously dude it's 2015, thread over and there's more important subjects than how legitimate reviews are.

There's more important subjects than video games or Sonic Boom whatever other crap we still talk about here, too, and yet here you are.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Squishdiboo on January 14, 2015, 02:30:27 PM
Question: what does "being pro-Gamergate" mean? This thread is too long and at this point the tweets and posts and everything else aren't making any sense to me.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Keith Stack on January 14, 2015, 09:38:06 PM
Being pro-Gamergate means you care so deeply about the integrity of video game news websites that you tweet about it every day.

My phone autocorrected GAMERA to GAMERS earlier today.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: AnKylo on January 14, 2015, 09:40:25 PM
Such a sin is blasphemous to the friend of children everywhere.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Squishdiboo on January 15, 2015, 04:05:47 AM
I don't get how people can keep having things to say about a single topic after more than a couple weeks. I don't know how bronies are still going on about my little pony. I don't know how people are still talking about gamer gate. I don't know how we keep having threads about sonic the hedgehog here.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: yaj on January 15, 2015, 09:41:12 AM
"So..that whole GamersCape thing."

it's kind of interesting, and really confusing (to me)

it seems like it's about certain video games not being nerdy enough to be video games, and certain people not being nerdy enough to be gamers. also the portrayal of women in video games. then it escalated into some guy sleeping with a girl, and the guy was part of a panel of judges, and she won. then something about cyber bullying. i lost track of how these things are all connected.

this entire thing reminds me of that documentary where the one guy said pac-man wasn't a real game, and missile command was.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Sofox on January 15, 2015, 01:39:05 PM
- video games not being nerdy enough to be video games

Its more that some games are getting large amounts of promotion because the developers have connections with the journalists, and because the journalist tend to push certain games as part of the political beliefs of the journalists (and by the same token, are criticising perfectly fine games because they don't fit into said ideology). Then they claim that any way of viewing the games that doesn't agree with them is "conservative" and "misogynistic".

- certain people not being nerdy enough to be gamers
It's more "people who genuinely don't play video games expounding on how video games need to change and shaming those who don't agree".

- portrayal of women in video games
Anti-GG have lots to say on this, pro-GG don't care that much one way or the other as long as the game is good. However, they take issue with huge, high standards being applied to female character, when the same standards aren't applied to male characters.

- then it escalated into some guy sleeping with a girl, and the guy was part of a panel of judges, and she won
This is conflating two issues:
A game developer had a relationship with a games journalist, the journalist
People who invested in Phil Fish's game Fez ended up as judges for it in a indie competition, and Fez ended up winning... twice on different years.

- cyber bullying

Done by both sides unfortunatley, for example: https://jennofhardwire.wordpress.com/2015/01/06/gamers-discussing-gamergate-scandal-are-being-harassed-wheres-the-coverage-this-article-will-be-regularly-updated-with-documented-harassment-of-gamers/

-i lost track of how these things are all connected
Not surprising, one of the most frustrating things about GamerGate is how, because gaming journalists are accused in all this, they don't cover the issue with detail making it very hard to research.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: yaj on January 15, 2015, 05:53:23 PM
- video games not being nerdy enough to be video games

Its more that some games are getting large amounts of promotion because the developers have connections with the journalists, and because the journalist tend to push certain games as part of the political beliefs of the journalists (and by the same token, are criticising perfectly fine games because they don't fit into said ideology). Then they claim that any way of viewing the games that doesn't agree with them is "conservative" and "misogynistic".

Okay, it sounds like what you're talking about (and the scene this entire thing is centered around) is independent video games, so I can't really comment on that. I was basing this observation on something about Candy Crush on twitter, and I thought this comment was the general consensus with the gamer gate folks.  Hasn't there always been a certain subset of games that the hard core gamer's look down on? Like puzzle games. That tweet made me think that this might be part of the debate.

Yeah, I know things have gotten nasty on both sides. I wasn't trying to imply that it was just the anti gamer gate people that were being bullied. There's been accusations on both sides, but substantiating the accusations gets a little tricky. Anybody can pretend to be pro gamersgate, and vice versa.

I'm trying to understand something. What made people question the impartiality of the judges in this indie game competition? Was one of them the journalist that slept with the game developer you mentioned? Sorry I'm pretty dense, and forgot the stuff I read about before.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Sofox on January 15, 2015, 06:32:45 PM
I haven't seen Candy Crush or any such "causal" games mentioned as part of GamerGate. I know there's always a bit of snobbery with one group of gamers looking down on type of games (http://www.dorkly.com/post/47055/the-most-dangerous-gamer) but within GamerGate, the issues is that games are certain being overhyped for the two reasons I mentioned above.

-What made people question the impartiality of the judges in this indie game competition?

This article contains the most concrete evidence: http://gamesnosh.com/fez-investors-outed-judges-2011-igf-award/
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: yaj on January 15, 2015, 07:22:12 PM
Ah okay, thanks. That should help clarify some things.

To be fair I found the insult by doing a google search for candy crush+gamersgate on google after reading a comment on a huffpo article that said "Playing Candy Crush doesn't make you a gamer." So maybe I was looking too hard for that connection. This insult was bandied about by certain people, but they may not have been affiliated with pro gamersgate folks.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: James on January 15, 2015, 08:25:17 PM
ABC ran a heavily-biased segment on Nightline about how GG = MISOGYNY & HARASSMENT, using outdated/officially debunked information and only talking to notorious anti-GG figures for recorded interviews.

It's sad when Comedy Central handles reporting on an issue much better than you, and they edit for the sake of comedy and time.

The icing on the cake? Juju, the woman that made the segment, has been blocking whoever points out the flaws in the segment.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: David The Lurker on January 16, 2015, 12:20:59 PM
I would like to ask a simple question

Looking at your feed of nonstop tweets (why is it nonstop), at one point a 2011 Leigh Alexander tweet is dragged out of the mothballs where she says the following:

"Real career women don't have kids. We know it's best for everyone."

The screenshot of this tweet is given the gamergate hashtag, and you have a bit of a shout at her because of your mother's situation. Now, yes. Her statement is a bit silly. Plenty of career women have kids. Plenty of career women also don't have kids. And some who do have kids end up ignoring their kids, which is probably what she was referencing, even though that is still a negative viewpoint on the entire thing. But my question is this.

What does that have to do with video games.

Because as far as I can tell? That right there has nothing to do with video game journalism. Yes, she writes about video games, but she is stating an opinion, and everyone has biases. Journalist are no exception, but what's important is that they don't allow those biases to influence their work. If Leigh wrote an opinion piece where she echoes that idea, even if you disagree with it, that's fine. If she's writing a report that's about facts and she throws that in there for the hell of it, then yes, that's bad. But her just writing a tweet that, over three years later, people decide to get mad about it because of something completely unrelated? And trying to use that as evidence in some grander scheme? That's what I don't understand.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: James on January 16, 2015, 02:21:38 PM
Normally, I don't give two shits about Leigh (as is the standard because she'd proven herself to be so full of shit that hardly anyone takes her seriously). Seeing that screencapped tweet just... made me mad and set me off. Nobody has any right to declare what a "career woman" is and is supposed to be.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Vexiss on January 16, 2015, 02:43:12 PM
I don't get how people can keep having things to say about a single topic after more than a couple weeks. I don't know how bronies are still going on about my little pony. I don't know how people are still talking about gamer gate. I don't know how we keep having threads about sonic the hedgehog here.
do we really still have threads about sonic

idk

i guess you just have no passion squish
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: James on January 16, 2015, 04:11:26 PM
PC Gamer got involved. (http://gamesnosh.com/pc-gamer-owns-conflict-interest/)
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Squishdiboo on January 16, 2015, 06:56:18 PM
I don't and I'm glad.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Keith Stack on January 16, 2015, 10:14:06 PM
Normally, I don't give two shits about Leigh (as is the standard because she'd proven herself to be so full of shit that hardly anyone takes her seriously). Seeing that screencapped tweet just... made me mad and set me off. Nobody has any right to declare what a "career woman" is and is supposed to be.
Okay, sure, but why the GamerGate hashtag?
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: James on January 16, 2015, 10:16:18 PM
Be honest - would you want that kind of thinking working its way into the gaming industry?
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Keith Stack on January 16, 2015, 11:28:03 PM
I'm fine with people having opinions I may disagree with work in the video game industry. For example, I love just about every game Doug TenNapell is associated with, even though I strongly disagree with his beliefs.

But regardless of my opinion, that tweet had no links to corruption in the video game industry. It was just someone sharing an opinion that differed from your own. You're sullying the name of the impeccable GamerGate movement!
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Matt_TY on January 17, 2015, 12:07:33 AM
TO be fair, Leigh Alexander has been one of the more prominent anti-GGers, to the point where one of her other opinions was that it's, quote "slimy" and "pandering" to be neutral on the matter, or believe that both sides have some valid points. SHe appears to divide the world into "people who unreservedly agree with everything she says" and "filthy misogynists" as a way to avoid having to defend, discuss or modify her opinions in any way.

To be fair again though, one of the major problems with both sides of the thing is the whole politicised "look what this person did that was bad, therefore the other side is evil and we are teh good guys" like this is a god-damned election campaign, and James, you kinda are playing into that still. Infact there was a state election campaign in my state going on at the same time as much of GamerGate and I've not been able to help but notice how similar the two things have been.

Somewhere on both sides there are people who actually want to talk to each other to fix things. I'm on the side of those people.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: James on January 17, 2015, 01:54:53 AM
I don't see what decrying the concept that mother =/= career woman has to do with politics. It''s a shitty mindset, plain and simple.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Matt_TY on January 17, 2015, 08:24:31 AM
By "politics" I mean the whole "THEM BAD US GOOD" thing, rather than the content of the opinion itself. This one of THEM said something BAD because THEM BAD.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: AnKylo on January 17, 2015, 11:38:04 AM
I'm not 100% into the Gamergate movement, but I still love this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DlSx7m09R60
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: TimmiT on January 17, 2015, 06:52:45 PM
I think it's pretty silly to think that GamerGate actually can have a positive effect on game journalism now that it's so heavily affiliated with misogyny and harassment.

I also think it's pretty silly to think that a movement that has a lot of people from 4chan/8chan doesn't have a lot of toxicity in it and that it's just a minority or whatever.

Just saying. You can want to improve game journalism without retweeting a shitton of GamerGate bullshit that actually has barely anything to do with game journalism.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: James on January 17, 2015, 09:34:18 PM
Oh hello, utterly biased fuckface. What made you take your break from Twitter?

Did you have enough of the circlejerk of your willful ignorance there and decide to come here to go for a round of "Ignore the Facts Because I'm a Brainwashed Fucker Who Can't Get Off Without Arguing"?
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Matt_TY on January 17, 2015, 11:00:07 PM
-TimmiT: "YOU BAD US GOOD"
-James: "NO U"

*facepalm*
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: James on January 17, 2015, 11:07:55 PM
How do you think I feel? That's the reason Jenny and I (and I'm quite sure others) had to block him - he just refuses to believe the narrative he's bought into is outright wrong, no matter what evidence is provided to him.

But then, from what I've been told, a good deal of the Sonic fandom including TSSZ bought into the narrative and became SJWs.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Squishdiboo on January 17, 2015, 11:35:33 PM
TimmiT popped in and said something barely offensive and James is all aggressively rude about it.  Makes me want to side with TimmiT about this, because he's apparently capable of expressing an opinion in a reasonable way, considering he's an "utterly biased fuckface."
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: James on January 17, 2015, 11:40:53 PM
You haven't seen him on Twitter.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Squishdiboo on January 17, 2015, 11:46:23 PM
You're not doing a very good job representing yourself, or your perspective.  You sound like people who watch too much Fox News and just spout off stupid angry buzzwords at anybody who has an actual opinion about things because they happen to disagree with you.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: James on January 17, 2015, 11:48:21 PM
And since when do YOU care about how I represent myself? You've never given a shit about anyone unless you've been in close proximity!
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Squishdiboo on January 17, 2015, 11:53:40 PM
What are you even talking about?
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: James on January 17, 2015, 11:55:54 PM
Whatever. What the fuck ever.

It isn't my fault that the fuckface decided to drag his willfully-ignorant-for-months ass back into here to stir up shit.

And I'm not going to entertain this shit anymore, including how you and I NEVER see eye-to-eye on anything.

I'm starting to think Jenny had the right fucking idea when she left.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Squishdiboo on January 17, 2015, 11:58:07 PM
I know this might be a "pot calling the kettle black" situation here, but boy oh boy do you need to calm down.  You're super overreacting.  But please do leave.  Lord knows you're not fun to keep around.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: James on January 18, 2015, 12:01:27 AM
Congratulations. Have fun becoming the SJW Sonic community, barely fucking lite.

Unlikable bitch.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Keith Stack on January 18, 2015, 12:06:08 AM
Hey, that was uncalled for!

Squishdiboo is a very likable bitch.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Squishdiboo on January 18, 2015, 12:08:12 AM
Ha ha.  I've seen threads on this forum wondering where I am and requesting that I return, but I doubt we'll see anybody going "oh man what happened to J the great fellow who called everybody who disagreed with him a fuckface and a Social Justice Warrior? He was so fun to talk to!"

Enjoy your delusions and Extreme Internet Rage, though.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Squishdiboo on January 18, 2015, 12:22:10 AM
This must be how Dorothy felt when she accidentally splashed some harmless water onto the Wicked Witch and the woman melted to death.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: TimmiT on January 18, 2015, 03:37:13 AM
Oh...

Oh geeze...

Right, ignoring all of those insults you just made: I didn't "buy into any narrative". I actually looked at the Twitter hashtag, KotakuInAction, 4chan and 8chan quite a few times and found out for myself that it mostly is just people getting angry about opinions and responding to those in offensive ways. I didn't buy into anything Anita Sarkeesian, Leigh Alexander, Zoe Quinn or any "SJW" said about GamerGate, I actually looked into it myself. If there's any narrative I bought into, it was that GamerGate could actually better game journalism for the one week I actually supported it. While if anything, it's made it harder to.

You don't need to be part of some movement to try to better game journalism, you can try to point the stuff out to gaming sites that they could improve. If they listen: great. If they don't: then whatever, just don't read that gaming site if you're really that bothered by it. But trying to make these sites, or the writers of these sites, look like villains because of it as long as you don't agree with them probably isn't the right way to change their stance. That will just about remove any chance of them actually listening to you, as it's become so personal and uncomfortable to talk about.

Really the message GamerGate generally brings seems to be this: "Agree with us or we'll try to make you look like a big bad guy". If that's actually the truth is maybe debatable, but that's not the point. It's the message the hashtag/movement brings to the people you're trying to reach with this thing. And maybe there's some truth to that considering the way you responded to me just now about this thing.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Fadflamer on January 18, 2015, 05:18:26 AM
From following GamerGate as much as I've been able to in the last few months, and only having looked at pages 12 and 13 of this thread, I think Sofox nailed the basic core idea.

All movements/religions/fandoms/etc involve radical fuckwits, sane people interested in a conversation to understand things, and folks in between. It's important to be able to look passed the harshly insane fuckwittery and blind dick sucking to look at and understand what people's concerns are.

From what I can gather, media tends to side with what will garner views. It's gone to shit, and joining in with the painting people as mysoginists circlejerking is a safe route, because questioning the legitimacy of a claim of mysoginy is becoming toxic.

Playing the 4chan is toxic card is the mark of a society that thinks it is better than what actual raw humanity looks like and is too anally ravaged to handle people disagreeing with them. I sort of understand that it might be intimidating, maybe, but learning how to not give a shit about unconstrctive critisism is important, just as learning to accept constructive criticism is helpful. Developing a thick skin is necessary to life in general.

On a side note, that Jon McIntosh guy is a laugh riot. Him writing for FemFrequency helped me get an idea of why people don't care for it. Shit's crazy.

Just some thoughts. Gonna go back to playing some non walking simulator vidya.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Squishdiboo on January 18, 2015, 05:45:05 AM
I just think it's funny that somebody so committed to a cause can't handle having someone criticizing his method of communicating it to the point where he Quits In Rage and retreats to the womb of Twitter where he knows he can find comfort in his fellow pro-Gamergate buzzword spewers convinced that everybody who isn't All About The Cause is a Social Justice Warrior and The Enemy.

I mean, you want to talk about circle jerks, brainwashings, and "buying into narratives"..... well, there was a good example of it.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Matt_TY on January 18, 2015, 05:46:45 AM
TimmiT: From what little I've seen, there have been people on both sides who have been more than guilty of that "message" you mention. Hell, even staying neutral I've had to unfollow people I formerly liked and respected as I saw their Twitter feeds degenerate into something out of Lord of the Flies. It's hard to make polite suggestions to people chanting "KILL THE PIG SMASH HIM IN".

EDIT: I was going to write something big here but... basically, what Fadsy and Sofox said. If your argument against a group of people begins with the words "All [members of group] are", you are wrong.

Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: TimmiT on January 18, 2015, 05:49:24 AM
The sane people in GamerGate, if there are any, seem to be the minority though. You don't have to look much further than the first page of KotakuInAction (http://www.reddit.com/r/KotakuInAction/) to see if most of them are actually talking about game journalism.

Matt_TY: That'd be assuming that there are two sides. "Anti-GamerGate" isn't a group people are willingly a part of, it's a group GamerGate puts people in. While GamerGate is a group people are willingly a part of.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: 0005 maS maS on January 18, 2015, 06:22:42 AM
(http://i33.tinypic.com/2u87ztf.jpg)
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Matt_TY on January 18, 2015, 06:33:04 AM
TimmiT: A ragtag bunch of heroes, thrown together by necessity against a great evil, most of whom are evil for evil's sake and hate all good and nice in the world? Sorry, mate, I'm not buying it. The good guys here are the ones who want to talk to each other and listen to each other. I don't know what "side" or supposed lack thereof these good people are on and I don't care. Everyone else is just along for the ride and they should stop.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: TimmiT on January 18, 2015, 06:58:53 AM
Not sure how you got to the conclusion that I was trying to say that.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Matt_TY on January 18, 2015, 07:22:51 AM
Well, you seem to believe that "sane people" on one side are "in the minority", whereas there is no other side, meaning that the people who prominently oppose the one "side" must all be doing so individually, and if collaborating, are doing so solely because they have been "put in a group" and are "not willingly part of it". I am sorry if I tend to drift into hyperbole but I've had months and months of seeing this crap from the majority of people on either... well, ok, if you don't like "side", then, people of both extremes of opinion, happy? and for me it all boils down to THEM BAD US GOOD for differing values of "US" and "THEM" and I simply am not inclined to believe it and it saddens me that sensible voices in the middle of all this are being outright ignored in favour of more pointless mud-slinging from both groups.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Zodberg on January 18, 2015, 07:58:46 AM
this thread brings out the luckett in me
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: TimmiT on January 18, 2015, 08:00:25 AM
Well, it's hard to be neutral when it comes to what basically amounts to a hate group. I'm sorry for my use of hyperbole earlier, but the people who actually do try to improve game journalism seem to be in the minority. Again, you can take a look at KIA and see how much they discuss "SJWs" and their opinions rather than game journalism problems.

And while it is "THEM BAD US GOOD", you have to consider where each "side" comes from. From GamerGate's perspective, they are usually throwing these accusations around because of video game journalism at best or because of an opinion at worst. From the perspective of people like Zoe Quinn or Leigh Alexander, they are throwing these accusations around because of accusations against them at best or because of the huge amount of harassment they've been getting for months now at worst. Which again makes it kinda hard to stay neutral about this thing.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Sofox on January 19, 2015, 08:05:17 PM
Whoa, um, I step out for a bit and this happens?

Anyway, while there are a lot of details, I do agree with Matt's point that the good guys are those who want to talk and listen. That doesn't means they sacrifice their views or convictions or beliefs, it just means that they understand other people also have views and convictions and beliefs, and that maybe if they discuss things, they can both end up closer to what they want.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: SoNick on January 20, 2015, 11:07:59 PM
Yo, hadn't really weighed in on this before, surprised it's still going on now.

Anyway, Matt's hit the nail on the head for the most part, but there is one quote that I absolutely don't want lost in the other posts:
You don't need to be part of some movement to try to better game journalism, you can try to point the stuff out to gaming sites that they could improve. If they listen: great. If they don't: then whatever, just don't read that gaming site if you're really that bothered by it.
This is simply amazing and I think that it's what we really should take with us from this conversation.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Zodberg on January 21, 2015, 06:19:58 AM
this thread brings out the luckett in me

What is Luckett's opinion about Gamergate, I would love to know.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: yaj on January 21, 2015, 08:54:02 AM
this thread got pretty ridiculous. anyway, Fad articulated what i couldn't find the words for. it's important to look past all the name calling and bickering to actually understand both sides of the argument. so i'm trying to figure that out still, but won't say anything about it. because somebody else will rightly point out that i got it wrong.

anyway, even though i said some stuff about GTA, i didn't mean to imply the series should be censored in any way. those games just never appealed to me, since there didn't seem to be much of a point. but yeah, while the content is objectionable, that doesn't mean that it should be restricted in any way. the same can be said for any other video game.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Luckett on January 21, 2015, 09:06:56 AM
this thread brings out the luckett in me

What is Luckett's opinion about Gamergate, I would love to know.

Where else could that snippet have been from. I knew. Of course I knew. My precious babies.

Gamergate was doomed from the start, like any fucking "conversation" on twitter. Lets unite under a banner where any anonymous nutbag or group thereof can drag any well intentioned initial debate kicking and screaming into inevitable internet shitageddon.

Thats also the problem with any other banner mind. The feminist side also has its own share of the bad eggs, and so it all turns into what a war would look like if two toilets filled with turds from opposite dimensions began to phase-space into each other, one swirling one way, the other counter to it. A never ending cyclone of butt-spawn, smashing up against its equal and opposing force. Stare into it for too long yourself, and your face will be covered in the fallout. A shitspray of multidimensional origin, Ray.

I do feel bad for some of the Gamergaters though. Its like this was the first big-time they understood that an industry or social group of individuals inevitably falls into clique-dom. This was the first crystal clear moment where the horrible truth of human tribalism came into focus, and it was... about precious videogames. Now they had to start piecing everything else together, why they werent offered that promotion, why they were always picked last in sports, and so on. Then cometh the rage. Where will it all go? What channel of expression will they be able to funnel their emotions through and return to stability?

Not ONE but TWO RELEASES OF SMASH BROTHERS!
(http://i.imgur.com/Va8fFeM.gif)

I think pretty much all games jurnalism is terrible because of the cliquey nature of it and people that don't actually know jackshit about videogames/too lazy to google, but going to war on Twitter to "fix it" is the naive expectations of the slacktivism generation. Add a generous helping of trolls that have been waiting for such an all-star event to unclog their anuses all over and its a real internet tour de force. That people are still talking about it is a bit weird and pathetic, but then one side keeps whacking the others hornets nest/base camp flag, and more reverberations of the butt in 140 characters or less follows forth.

Addendum: wasn't James always terrible though?
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Keith Stack on February 01, 2015, 01:14:56 AM
GamerGate has really given us devoted misogynists a bad rap. Those guys keep threatening women with murder and rape, and that's not cool at all.

Look, let's face facts. We all want to slowly breed women out of existence and live in a homosexual utopia. It's practically common sense at this point. But raping and murdering women isn't going to help at all. We need women on our side, because nobody hates women as much as other women!

Think about it, how come all them gay dudes is so happy all the time, but lesbians are always so grumpy lookin? This ain't the gosh dingley Da-vinchee Code here fellas!
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: yaj on February 01, 2015, 08:04:40 AM
Yeah, right o- what the what?!?
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Sofox on February 01, 2015, 09:54:08 AM
I was going to reply to Keith's post by how a lot of pro-GG females have been harassed by anti-GGers, but as I kept reading... I just gave up.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Mirai on February 01, 2015, 03:38:47 PM
Keith's quip could be twisted into the perfect basis for a Catherine parody.

Imagine a game where beautiful women in sexy sheep lingerie are forced to climb block towers in their nightmares.  If they survive, they earn the right to carry on living happily in a world being manipulated by vengeful gods--taking the form of misogynistic bulldyke lesbians--who use the nightmares to kill off beautiful women in a quest to turn men homosexual and exterminate the human race.

Then, imagine the fury of the self-righteously indignant crowd over the sexism, misogyny, Internet Hate Machine, and blah, blah, so on and so forth.

...until they find out that 50% of the game's net profits go to support girls' schools and organizations to help women in hardship.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Zodberg on February 03, 2015, 06:48:37 AM
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/01/31/1361398/-YT-Armed-Gamergate-r-Crashes-Mother-s-Prius-en-route-to-Brianna-Wu-s-House

Of course, this is just a spin put fourth by the mainstream media against a subculture movement. In truth, it wasn't the idiot who crashed, but actually the car is at fault for taking him, and then not even completing the journey.

If this isn't sticking a fork in it, nothing ever will because we live in a universe without forks. But I believe in forks.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: SoNick on February 03, 2015, 11:56:48 PM
The question is... do the forks believe in you?
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: yaj on February 16, 2015, 07:19:15 PM
Well..hate to bump this, but did anyone catch the latest Law and Order SVU episode? It kind of ripped the gamergate thing off.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Sofox on February 17, 2015, 12:30:04 AM
Yeah, let's do a recap since the last post.

There was a thing where GG folks brought attention to an interview that implied corruption on the indie scene. Kotaku made a news posts where it talked to the people involved and claimed there was no truth to the allegations. While it acted like this was GG making a baseless claim, it showed two things 1) GG had enough support to make a trending hashtag to draw attention to a issue and 2) a mainstream gaming website basically confirmed that GG were interested in pursuing anti-corruption issues.

Onto the Law and Order: I haven't seen it, I've seen clips, it just seems like the same sort of utterly uninformed views of gaming stuff with forced plotlines that we've had since the 90s (with exceptions like Parker Lewis Can't Lose and stuff). Reaction has been weird. Some pro-GG say the show is an unintentional parody of the "other sides" view on what is really going on. Some anti-GG have said that the episode, while obviously referencing various events, completely fails to address the serious issues instead opting for cartoonish villainy. One anti-GGer seem to say that the episode is pretty much what's happening anyway.

Yeah, I dunno, to be honest, one of the reasons I haven't been posting here is I realise that it's better to cut my GG exposure. I mean, I've learned most of what I needed to (crowd behaviour, how opposing sides often mirror other people's behaviour, formation of hiveminds and groupthink on the internet, lack of discourse and real interaction with opposing viewpoint on the internet, errors in current media, and so forth). It is kinda exciting at times, but regardless of which side, there are some horrible people in this debate, and other people become more horrible by trying to ensure these horrible people get what's coming to them. It can lower your regard for humanity and get you trapped in a world of only seeing internet opinion and endless streams of text mostly from people you never met yet or know anything about yet for some reason consider important. Point is, a break is always good. And interacting with people in real life is a healthy part of any balanced life.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Matt_TY on February 17, 2015, 06:46:04 AM
Too true, Sofox. I've seen I've seen the twitter feeds or people - normal, cool people, people I've known for years - turn from normality into something out of Lord of the Flies (KILL-THE-PIG! SMASH-HIM-IN!) and unfortunately the intentional misrepresenting of people and twisting of stories to fit a narrative is reaching near-Olympic levels. I feel like I've said some or all of this before but then every time I come back to look at this issue I feel like I've seen some or all of these things before. It appears SVU somehow managed to misrepresent everyone at once though which is interesting.

Wait. No it isn't really.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Vexiss on February 17, 2015, 11:16:46 AM
Well..hate to bump this, but did anyone catch the latest Law and Order SVU episode? It kind of ripped the gamergate thing off.

i really want to
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: SoNick on February 17, 2015, 06:22:38 PM
Man I could never get into Law & Order at all, SVU included.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: Southbird on February 17, 2015, 07:13:43 PM
Man I could never get into Law & Order at all, SVU included.

I was into all of it for a while, but ... there's something about being constantly reminded about all the terrible things humanity is capable of, with L&O being based on actual news articles and such.
Title: Re: So... that whole GamersGate thing
Post by: yaj on February 17, 2015, 07:28:36 PM
eh..it's not the same without stabler; you're not missing much.